On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 09:41:40 +0900 Cedric BAIL <cedric.b...@free.fr> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:50 PM, David Seikel <onef...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 21:45:17 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) > > <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote: > >> On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 22:19:55 +1000 David Seikel <onef...@gmail.com> > >> said: > >> > On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 13:04:19 +0100 Stefan Schmidt > >> > <s.schm...@samsung.com> wrote: > >> > > On 06/19/2012 12:44 PM, David Seikel wrote: > >> > > > On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 20:37:37 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The > >> > > > Rasterman) <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > >> > > >> no - i dont want that. i want to do something more like wp2. > >> > > > > >> > > > What's wp2? > >> > > > >> > > I think he refers to wallpaper 2. Settings -> Wallpaper 2 from > >> > > the menu. > >> > > >> > Which is nice to have as an option, but does not do all the > >> > things tabs can do. So it's not a replacement for tabs. > >> > >> does what tabs do when u bring it up. in fact its better as u get > >> full previews. i dont plan on making any regular tabs. > > > It's the "when you bring it up" part that's the problem. Tabs don't > > need to be "brought up" to show you the info they display. You > > don't have to do anything to keep an eye on programs that change > > the tab text to show you progress or something important other than > > look up (on the tabs that's not the one you are using right now). > > You don't have to do anything to see which tab is which when you > > carefully name them. This is not better for those uses of tabs. > > It hides the info you want to see at a glance and makes it a > > separate step to get to that info. > > So what does prevent the wp2 style tabs to display the title as a > subtitle of the thumnail. I don't see any limitation here. It could > even be part of the theme and be removed by people that don't want it. > For getting feedback on activity on other theme we could do : > - when in wp2, blink with some red color the thumnail where a bell as > been triggered. Highlight with some other color the term that did > change since the last time we checked the wp2 state. > - when not in wp2, a bell is triggered in another term, we could get > the thumnail of that term and make it float like a ghost for some time > as an overlay of the current term (making it possible to click on it > and make it the active one). We could also do the same when the title > of another term change. > > All of this are idea, but it proves that displaying relevant > information at the right time without the need to permanently display > useless information is possible. The only thing is that we need to > think how to use everything we have, animation, mouse over, gesture, > ... to always display the most important information and do it in a > shinny way. We have to create something new here and we can do it. > > As a personnal statement, I hate toolbar, tab and menu, as they all > steal usefull space from what I am currently focusing on. The > important part is the content and what is going on with it. > > > Most of my terminal tabs are running MC, some on the same > > directories, they will look identical or almost identical in a > > thumbnail that's small enough to show them all. That's not gonna > > help me at all. > > Why do you think it's impossible to put the title under a thumbnail ? > > > Doing something different is good, it's just not "better" if it > > removes useful functionality. Your idea is good, it just removes > > useful functionality that is provided with tabs. It's no > > substitute for tabs, it's something completely different. > > It only remove them because you didn't think of a way to have them. > Now tell me that, it's really impossible to display the term title > under/over the thumbnail, that it is impossible to highlight properly > the right tab the way you want. It really does sound like you have bling in search of a use, instead of looking at what works well, and discarding what has worked well in the past coz it's just not blingy enough. I don't think it's impossible to put a title under a thumbnail, it was the "but you have to do something to see it" that I'm objecting to. You have suggested a possible means of dealing with that for one possible use case, but not for all. I did in fact struggle with elementary's lack of tabs, and really don't like the results. Traditional tabs are just plain needed for some things that no amount of bling will substitute for. The same with toolbars and menus. Though yes, the toolbar and menu concepts could use a bit of tweakage. And I'm not complianing about adding special effects to them, just the lack of basic functionality that got thrown out coz "we can do better" meant discarding useful standard behavoirs in favour of shiny. > As a side note, I think it's good you gave us your requirement, at > least we can make sure that they are in the final design. We have a fundamental disagreement about the need for changing something that works quite well. Does not sound like any of us are gonna change the minds of the others. Gustavo and I are gonna be a tough audience, but trust me, people outside the EFL project are gonna be even tougher. Gustavo and I at least WANT to use it, if it measures up to our standards, coz it's EFL and looks great in other respects. A lot of people are gonna react with "WTF is this shit bling, where the hell are the tabs. Useless piece of crap.". And some will say that even if you DO have ALL the functionality, but you should at least have all the functionality. We don't HAVE to create something new, certainly we don't HAVE to be shiny. Doing things just coz it's shiny is not gonna go down well for something as utilitarian, plain, and boring as a terminal program. Bling for the sake of bling just wont go down well among the users of these things. You can add all the bling you want, just make sure that if you are using bling instead of previously working functionality, that you think through all the uses of that functionality, and don't leave anything out. Don't leave out functionality just coz you don't like it, when it should be obvious by now that other people are passionate about it. You wont convince us with argument, we wont convince you. Show us the code if you think it can be "better". Then we can review what you actually make, and decide if you have satisfied our use cases. So make your blingy tab substitute, but those of us that like and use tabs are watching, and we will bitch loudly if what you make is a backwards step for the functionality we want. Then one of us will make tabs anyway. :-P Options are good, not everyone thinks the same. -- A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.
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