Ryan,

Are you saying that Rhododendron and Mountain Laurel are a native invasive in 
some conditions as opposed to the "normal" forest components?  If so in what 
circumstances is this the case? It always struck me as a core component of the 
forest rather than something that should not be there. 

The definitions you provided are useful in these types of discussions on the 
list to make sure everyone is starting from the same basic perspective.  The 
idea of native placeholders to help prevent the establishment of non-native 
invasives is interesting. 

I am wondering about what you think concerning the replacement of native 
grasses by invasive ones in some settings.  this is a big problem in some 
patches of open prairie in the mid west.  Another example is from some of the 
Allegheny River Islands, portions of the islands were open grassy areas.  These 
have since been replaced by Japanese Stiltgrass.  This may be do to the damming 
of the river upstream preventing the annual or at least frequent flooding of 
the islands.  (The presumption being that the flooding was more favorable to 
the native species than it is to the invasives.)  The same can be said for the 
invasive multiflora roses, the Knotweed, etc.  The only areas in portions of 
the island not covered by the invasives, and still retaining a semblance of 
native species are areas still being flooded.  The point being that changes in 
the natural processes of flooding, fire, etc, may actually result in less 
"disturbance"  of the area and promote the rise of invasives.  Some types of 
disturbances are needed to maintain the natural succession cycles and 
interrupting them may result in the invasion of both exotics and atypical 
native species.  Obviously the grassy areas do not have shrub layer, but the 
process could be analogous to those affecting forest settings.

Ed

Join the Primal Forests - Ancient Trees Community at:  
http://primalforests.ning.com/

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ryan McEwan 
  To: [email protected] 
  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:28 AM
  Subject: [ENTS] Re: Shrub-layer an empty niche?


  I imagine that if you focus on life history traits, some native species are 
"invasive," but, most deciduous forest shrub-layer species don't fall into that 
category in my view- Smilax, Viburnum, Lindera, etc., just dont have the same 
impact on biodiversity and ecosystem function as invasives such as Lonicera or 
Ligustrum.   What about Rhododendron, though?  I think it is an interesting 
case...and maybe Kalmia in some settings, I am sure there are others I am not 
thinking of.   

  The other really important thing to keep in mind is that native weeds should 
not be considered "invasive" if they are part of an ephemeral community.  Think 
of poke (Phytolacca)...it has all the features  of an "invasive" species, but 
it does NOT form a persistent community...it is ephemeral, holding the niche 
for a brief time.  Ultimately, I think native weeds might be the key for 
management of invasives...you need something aggressive to hold those disturbed 
areas until you can get the forest floor in place and some shade from the 
canopy.  Native "weeds" like Phytolacca, Rubus, Eupatorium rugosum, maybe even 
Acer negundo, and others, might be very helpful in that context.

  ryan



  On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:18 PM, Steve Galehouse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

    Russ, ENTS-

    Not to be a heretic, but I think we have to realize we humans are as much 
agents of dispersal of plant species as are birds, squirrels, wind patterns, 
etc. Were it not native in my area, I think any of the Smilax species would be 
considered invasive, as well as Viburnum acerifolium and Vaccinium stamineum. 
The "alien" barberries, buckthorns, burning bushes and the rest that have 
become naturalized are now effectively native species--just because we can 
document how they came here from distant origins, doesn't mean they don't 
belong here in the grand scheme. We don't know how "native" species expanded 
their ranges, but I'm sure many did so with the help of human 
influence(agriculture). I also think that observing and recording the shrub 
layer of the forest, without taking in to account the herbaceaous layer, is 
limiting the mix of the forest community.

    Steve 



    On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 1:48 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

      ENTS:

      There is no doubt that the spread of certain invasive species is 
accelerated by white tail deer.  In the Appalachians Microstegium vimineum, 
Japanese stiltgrass is changing the condition of the "natural" hardwood forest 
faster than researchers can keep up with the evolving idea of what a "natural" 
forest or "natural" regeneration is likely to be defined as in the future.

      Invasive plants are showing up in tracts of woodland where nothing more 
than a stream passing through the property is a part of the disturbance regime. 
 

      In so many forested situations I have encountered, the invasive species 
are not filling in a vacant niche...they are replacing a dynamic and diverse 
forest understory comprised of hundreds of native plant species per acre with a 
green desert that consists of a dozen or less of the most persistent native 
plants fighting for space against the overwhelming assault of non resident 
alien invaders that are capable of altering their adopted environment to suit 
their needs while producing prodigious amounts of seed that enjoy extremely 
high germination rates in the absence of fertility depleting microorganisms 
that keep resident plan populations in balance.

      Again, the changes being wrought on our forests by climate change and 
nonnative plants, insects and diseases is validating the ENTS historical 
mission of documenting what a "natural" forest is by today's definition.


      Russ 





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  -- 
  Ryan McEwan
  The University of Dayton
  http://academic.udayton.edu/RyanMcEwan




  


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