Native grape vines act like an invasive in some cases in the right conditions if you ask me. Almost as bad as certain exotic vine species. I always cut out grape vines if they start growing on my property. I don't like them that much.
Kirk Johnson From: DON BERTOLETTE <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 02:40:50 +0000 To: <[email protected]> Subject: [ENTS] Re: Shrub-layer an empty niche? Lee- Of course you can do what you wish without any sayso from me. But perhaps you could explain how this differs from any native species competing with other natives when faced with an opportunity brought about by a disturbance, whether natural or, presumably in the specific case you refer to, by man's introduction of non-native earthworms(?)? Your offered example is so specific. I believe Ed and I were discussing a much more general scenario, where we were worried that such a usage was likely to introduce confusion into a topic already becoming fraught with new terminology to the lay public (non-native, alien invader, invasives, etc.) -Don From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: [ENTS] Re: Shrub-layer an empty niche? Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:03:21 -0500 Ok Lee whatever you say, Join the Primal Forests - Ancient Trees Community at: http://primalforests.ning.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Lee Frelich <mailto:[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:31 PM Subject: [ENTS] Re: Shrub-layer an empty niche? Ed, Don: I find the term native invasive useful and will continue to use it in publications (along with exotic invasive and exotic non-invasive). Native invasive is particularly useful for species like Carex pensylvanica, that have expanded their niche to exclude most other native species permanently over vast areas in the absence of disturbance, but that happened to be preadapted to the disappearance of certain mycorrhizae from the soil. Lee At 03:56 PM 12/11/2008, you wrote: Don, I am in complete agreement about the term Native Invasive. It is an oxymoron and should be abandonned. The concept trying to be expressed is interesting however. Consider that something might cause the explosive increase in the number of one native species to the detriment of others that would normally be expected in an area. In other examples a single species may be present in greater numbers than in the adjacent areas because of some specific type of disturbance. This condition may persist for a long time or be relatively ephemeral min nature. In this regard I am thinking of the Marion Brooks Natural Area in PA. Here the location was logged, then a massive fire burnt the area destroying most of the organic material and soil structure. the area was pioneered by white birch. This occurred 80 or 90 years ago and the area persists as a stand of almost pure white birch. other species are not recolonizing the area as might be expected in a normal disturbed region. Another example to a degree might be patches of forests that have limited species diversity because of alleopathy of some of the species present. If some of these limited areas were to expand it would be an invasive-like effect that limited the diversity of species present in the area compared to the normal forest. I guess I am just rambling at this point. Ed Join the Primal Forests - Ancient Trees Community at: http://primalforests.ning.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: DON BERTOLETTE <mailto:[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 3:12 PM Subject: [ENTS] Re: Shrub-layer an empty niche? Ryan/Ed- >From my perspective, the phrase "native invasive" is a contradiction in terms, and should be discontinued immediately, lest it gain coinage by being "Google-able"....;>} <BR --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org You are subscribed to the Google Groups "ENTSTrees" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
