Lee- I recognize your use of 'native invasive' serves you well, and presumably in an academic environment. I understand that doing an internet search such as Google often yields a fair number of hits, and their value academically is questionable. That said, out of curiousity, I Googled "native invasive". Out of the first 100 hits, two specifically referred to the usage that you have explained. The other ninety-eight were "non-native invasive" hits. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for elevating the standards of ENTS members understanding of the world around us. My only point was, and at this point I apologize as I've already belabored the point too long, I worry about the likelihood of confusion it's use will generate in the lay public...at the Grand Canyon, we strove everyday to get the message out to our public, and we never felt our job was done... -Don
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 19:19:12 -0600To: [email protected]: [email protected]: [ENTS] Re: Shrub-layer an empty niche?Don:In some sense Penn sedge is not different from other native species. For example, birch after forest fires can take over a million acres in the boreal forest. However, these birch don't alter the historic successional pathways like Penn sedge. The later successional species can still get back in, unlike Penn sedge that expands rapidly and alters the environment in such a way that other native species are excluded. We know that most native plant species can persist and recover to some extent after earthworm invasion if Penn sedge doesn't take over.I have not had problems explaining the concept of native invasive species to the public.LeeAt 08:40 PM 12/11/2008, you wrote: Lee-Of course you can do what you wish without any sayso from me.But perhaps you could explain how this differs from any native species competing with other natives when faced with an opportunity brought about by a disturbance, whether natural or, presumably in the specific case you refer to, by man's introduction of non-native earthworms(?)?Your offered example is so specific. I believe Ed and I were discussing a much more general scenario, where we were worried that such a usage was likely to introduce confusion into a topic already becoming fraught with new terminology to the lay public (non-native, alien invader, invasives, etc.)-Don From: [email protected]: [email protected]: [ENTS] Re: Shrub-layer an empty niche?Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:03:21 -0500Ok Lee whatever you say, Join the Primal Forests - Ancient Trees Community at: http://primalforests.ning.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Lee Frelich To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:31 PM Subject: [ENTS] Re: Shrub-layer an empty niche? Ed, Don: I find the term native invasive useful and will continue to use it in publications (along with exotic invasive and exotic non-invasive). Native invasive is particularly useful for species like Carex pensylvanica, that have expanded their niche to exclude most other native species permanently over vast areas in the absence of disturbance, but that happened to be preadapted to the disappearance of certain mycorrhizae from the soil. Lee At 03:56 PM 12/11/2008, you wrote: Don, I am in complete agreement about the term Native Invasive. It is an oxymoron and should be abandonned. The concept trying to be expressed is interesting however. Consider that something might cause the explosive increase in the number of one native species to the detriment of others that would normally be expected in an area. In other examples a single species may be present in greater numbers than in the adjacent areas because of some specific type of disturbance. This condition may persist for a long time or be relatively ephemeral min nature. In this regard I am thinking of the Marion Brooks Natural Area in PA. Here the location was logged, then a massive fire burnt the area destroying most of the organic material and soil structure. the area was pioneered by white birch. This occurred 80 or 90 years ago and the area persists as a stand of almost pure white birch. other species are not recolonizing the area as might be expected in a normal disturbed region. Another example to a degree might be patches of forests that have limited species diversity because of alleopathy of some of the species present. If some of these limited areas were to expand it would be an invasive-like effect that limited the diversity of species present in the area compared to the normal forest. I guess I am just rambling at this point. Ed Join the Primal Forests - Ancient Trees Community at: http://primalforests.ning.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: DON BERTOLETTE To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 3:12 PM Subject: [ENTS] Re: Shrub-layer an empty niche? Ryan/Ed- >From my perspective, the phrase "native invasive" is a contradiction in terms, >and should be discontinued immediately, lest it gain coinage by being >"Google-able"....;>} <BR _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_speed_122008 --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org You are subscribed to the Google Groups "ENTSTrees" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
