Ok Lee whatever you say,

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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lee Frelich 
  To: [email protected] 
  Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:31 PM
  Subject: [ENTS] Re: Shrub-layer an empty niche?


  Ed, Don:

  I find the term native invasive useful and will continue to use it in 
publications (along with exotic invasive and exotic non-invasive). Native 
invasive is particularly useful for species like Carex pensylvanica, that have 
expanded their niche to exclude most other native species permanently over vast 
areas in the absence of disturbance, but that happened to be preadapted to the 
disappearance of certain mycorrhizae from the soil.

  Lee

  At 03:56 PM 12/11/2008, you wrote:

    Don,
     
    I am in complete agreement about the term Native Invasive.  It is an 
oxymoron and should be abandonned.  The concept trying to be expressed is 
interesting however.  Consider that something might cause the explosive 
increase in the number of one native species to the detriment of others that 
would normally be expected in an area.  In other examples a single species may 
be present in greater numbers than in the adjacent areas because of some 
specific type of disturbance.  This condition may persist for a long time or be 
relatively ephemeral min nature.  In this regard I am thinking of the Marion 
Brooks Natural Area in PA.  Here the location was logged, then a massive fire 
burnt the area destroying most of the organic material and soil structure.  the 
area was pioneered by white birch.  This occurred 80 or 90 years ago and the 
area persists as a stand of almost pure white birch.  other species are not 
recolonizing the area as might be expected in a normal disturbed region.  
     
    Another example to a degree might be patches of forests that have limited 
species diversity because of alleopathy of some of the species present.  If 
some of these limited areas were to expand it would be an invasive-like effect 
that limited the diversity of species present in the area compared to the 
normal forest.   
     
    I guess I am just rambling at this point.
     
    Ed
     
     
    Join the Primal Forests - Ancient Trees Community at:  
    http://primalforests.ning.com/

      ----- Original Message ----- 

      From: DON BERTOLETTE 

      To: [email protected] 

      Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 3:12 PM

      Subject: [ENTS] Re: Shrub-layer an empty niche?


      Ryan/Ed-

      From my perspective, the phrase "native invasive" is a contradiction in 
terms, and should be discontinued immediately, lest it gain coinage by being 
"Google-able"....;>}





  


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