for what it's worth:
I'm generally a used vehicle buyer, so I'm heavily influenced by what
came out 3-10 years ago.
I guess I fall somewhere in between Willie and yourself. I leased (the
first time in decades I have bought or leased a new car and gone through
that horrible depreciation expense) a 2012 Leaf from 2012-2015 and lost
a couple of bars (Southern Arizona) before I traded it back in. I
partly empathize with some of Willie's harsh views about not getting
another Nissan, though I do wonder sometimes, if I risked buying a used
62 kWh Leaf, how would the battery hold up in the Arizona heat, after
Nissan made their chemistry changes (but apparently declined to add
really good battery cooling)? I would consider getting an Ariya once it
has had a chance to drop in price in the used marketplace. Willie won't
consider another Nissan. My own view is most of the manufacturers have
done something that I think is pretty awful, to one degree or another,
and "beggars can't be choosers" so I can't take that many options off
the table when I consider what I am driving and I am trying not to dig
my heels in too deep in saying "never this" or "never that". If I were
a millionaire and could define "unacceptable and firing offenses" by the
auto companies much more strictly for my purposes, I would not have
driven a Chevy Volt after the Leaf, and given Musk's multiple immoral
comments and actions (and given some concerns about Tesla
trustworthiness on some points) I would not be driving a Tesla.
As to Musk, I will make this point: I admire him and the Tesla team
greatly for being the ones to step up and pull of the impossible, while
the auto companies were all solving the innovator's dilemma so poorly
and de-prioritizing customer interest in quality long range BEVS. I
credit them on various fronts, but discredit them on others. Growing up
in the 70s, my dad would not consider buying a German car and I never
saw him drive a Ford. The German thing was because of the Holocaust,
and the Ford thing was not as prominent in our lives, but I think Henry
Ford's long-standing outrageous anti-semitism (and pre-war was he
somewhat sympathetic to the 30s Nazis? I don't know) had something to
do with it. Musk's questionable views arguably do not yet sink to the
level of awfulness of Henry Ford's, but, in my view, he is getting
there, and there are a number of practices at the company (treatment of
employees in some cases) that need mulling over. I sometimes hear
derision toward the idea of connecting one's politics to some personal
microeconomic decisions that have such enormous impact on our finances,
but we all have our limits of what we will tolerate from a person or a
company before we have to blackball them.
On balance, if it wasn't going to cost me something like $20k-$30k (or
more if I take into account possible values the market in the future
might put on transferable free supercharging for the life of the
vehicle) to get out of this Tesla and into a 300 mile competing BEV
brand, I'd probably do it. As it is, when GM gets around to making a
good Equinox BEV, or when one of the competitors comes down to under
$30k used, I'm considering getting out of the Tesla.
On 5/18/2023 11:09 AM, jamie via EV wrote:
To contrast with Willie's oft reported and unfortunately terrible
experience with his early model, our 2013 SV LEAF has been a good
investment and overall reliable car. LEAFs had some upgrades that year
including a battery percentage display, charge connector lighting,
heat pump, and reportedly improved battery chemistry. Has heated seats
and steering wheel - great in winter.
Bought used with under 3k miles. Have replaced tires a few times,
12volt accessory battery once, and brake fluid as recommended during
the 80,000 or so miles driven so far. Down one bar (of 12) on the
battery and still handles our local driving needs, which is most of
our driving.
Always fun to drive and we appreciate the practical hatchback design.
We weren't looking to pay triple the price or more for race car
performance, but the LEAF does have that instant EV torque and rules
the road in city driving.
There's a slight (and apparently common) problem with the driver's
door handle cover that we won't bother to fix. And the charge door
failed to open once, but fixed itself.
The ride seems nicer than the Tesla M3s I've ridden in and it may have
less road noise IIRC. Have not yet ridden in a Model Y. When the time
comes to replace our distance car (2007 Prius) we'll see if Tesla
makes a similar small hatchback by then, or what other such options
may become available from VW, Ford, KIA, Hyundai or others (Fisker
PEAR?). Hopefully Honda, Mazda, Toyota and other laggards will get
their EV acts together, too.
I'm among those put off by some of the negative aspects of Elon's
management style, penchant for drama and foot swallowing, plus
designed-in vehicle privacy issues, and the repair problems one of my
Tesla owning friends has experienced. That said, Tesla as a company
has certainly led the way toward the EV explosion thanks to the
contributions of MANY talented people, and, importantly, the continued
support of regional and federal government programs and incentives in
the USA and elsewhere.
Cheers,
-Jamie
On 5/18/23 10:56 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
On 5/18/23 11:41, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
On 17 May 2023 at 22:49, paul dove via EV wrote:
So, what is your alternative. A leaf? They were the only ones that
made
a usable vehicle.
Why not a Leaf? Early ones had problems in hot climates, and I'm
aware of
some warranty coverage gripes. Despite that, quite a few people,
including
members of this list, have owned them and have gotten good service from
them.
We bought a new 2011 Leaf. Here in Texas, the battery lasted ~20k
miles in ~2 years. Nissan dealers, on several occasions, declared
the battery to be "normal" even though range was about 50 miles.
Down from ~90. I could have joined the class action suit but did
not want to fool with it. Just as I will not fool with Tesla about
reduced SuperCharging power. But, I will never buy another Nissan
car. Just as I will never buy another GM car. I will, almost
certainly, buy more Teslas. I still keep track of that Leaf. It is
near valueless. Not fooling with the class action suit was the right
decision. The participants got VERY little satisfaction.
GM still gets much grief for their behavior with the EV1. IMHO, it
was their right to do what they did. There biggest sin was denying
us NiMH chemistry for ~10 years. With NiMH a FAR better Leaf could
have been developed and sold. As it is, EV adoption was delayed
about ten years.
_______________________________________________
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
_______________________________________________
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
_______________________________________________
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
