Hi Terren,

On 13 Jun 2011, at 18:46, Terren Suydam wrote:


Long time lurker here, very intrigued by all the discussions here when
I have time for them!

Earlier in response to Colin Hales you wrote: "Actually, comp prevents
"artificial intelligence".

Can you elaborate on this?  If we assume comp (I say yes to the
doctor) then I can be simulated...

That is correct.



doesn't that imply the possibility
of an artificial intelligence?

In a weak sense of Artificial Intelligence, yes. In a strong sense, no.

If you are duplicated at the right substitution level, few would say that "you" have become an "artificial intelligence". It would be a case of the good old natural intelligence, but with new clothes.

In fact, if we are machine, we cannot know which machine we are, and that is why you need some luck when saying "yes" to a doctor who will build a copy of you/your-body, at some level of description of your body.

This is an old result. Already in 1922, Emil Post, who discovered "Church thesis" ten years before Church and Turing (and others) realized that the "Gödelian argument" against Mechanism (that Post discovered and refuted 30 years before Lucas, and 60 years before Penrose), when corrected, shows only that a machine cannot build a machine with equivalent qualification to its own qualification (for example with equivalent provability power in arithmetic) *in a provable way*. I have refered to this, in this list, under the name of "Benacerraf principle", who rediscovered this later.

We just cannot do artificial intelligence in a provable manner. We need chance, or luck. Even if we get some intelligent machine, we will not know-it-for sure (perhaps just believe it correctly).

This is why I am saying (in your quote below) that "artificial intelligence" will look more and more like fishing and hunting in some computational spaces. That might explains the growing importance of optimization technics, and search technics in "artificial intelligence". I was saying this to Colin, because he argues against the idea of artificial scientist, confusing that impossibility with computationalism. But computationalism prevents the existence of complete theory about us, and makes "artificial intelligence" more like *discovering* entities (in some virtual rendering of Platonia) than *creating* or *inventing* those entities by engineering and mathematics. And of course we can always try to copy nature and ourselves, and be lucky in some cases. Sorry for having been short. I hope this clarify a bit. Tell me if it does not or if you have questions. All this is related to the difference between proofs and *constructive* proofs. If an AI exists, we cannot prove its existence constructively, but we might prove its existence in some big set of objects, and isolate it experimentally by non constructive means.

Bruno



On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
Hi Colin,

On 07 Jun 2011, at 09:42, Colin Hales wrote:

Hi,

Hales, C. G. 'On the Status of Computationalism as a Law of Nature',
International Journal of Machine Consciousness vol. 3, no. 1, 2011. 1-35.

http://dx.doi.org/10.1142/S1793843011000613


The paper has finally been published. Phew what an epic!


Congratulation Colin.

Like others, I don't succeed in getting it, neither at home nor at the
university.

From the abstract I am afraid you might not have taken into account our
(many) conversations. Most of what you say about the impossibility of
building an artificial scientist is provably correct in the (weak) comp theory. It is unfortunate that you derive this from comp +materialism, which is inconsistent. Actually, comp prevents "artificial intelligence". This does not prevent the existence, and even the apparition, of intelligent machines. But this might happen *despite* humans, instead of 'thanks to the humans'. This is related with the fact that we cannot know which machine we are ourselves. Yet, we can make copy at some level (in which case we don't know what we are really creating or recreating, and then, also, descendent of bugs in regular programs can evolve. Or we can get them serendipitously. It is also relate to the fact that we don't *want* intelligent machine, which is really a computer who will choose its user, if ... he want one. We
prefer them to be slaves. It will take time before we recognize them
(apparently).
Of course the 'naturalist comp' theory is inconsistent. Not sure you take
that into account too.

Artificial intelligence will always be more mike fishing or exploring
spaces, and we might *discover* strange creatures. Arithmetical truth is a universal zoo. Well, no, it is really a jungle. We don't know what is in
there. We can only scratch a tiny bit of it.

Now, let us distinguish two things, which are very different:

1) intelligence-consciousness-free-will-emotion

and

2) cleverness-competence-ingenuity-gifted-learning-ability

"1)" is necessary for the developpment of "2)", but "2)" has a negative
feedback on "1)".

I have already given on this list what I call the smallest theory of
intelligence.

By definition a machine is intelligent if it is not stupid. And a machine
can be stupid for two reason:
she believes that she is intelligent, or
she believes that she is stupid.

Of course, this is arithmetized immediately in a weakening of G, the theory C having as axioms the modal normal axioms and rules + Dp -> ~BDp. So Dt
(arithmetical consistency) can play the role of intelligence, and Bf
(inconsistance) plays the role of stupidity. G* and G proves BDt -> Bf and
G* proves BBf -> Bf (but not G!).

This illustrates that "1)" above might come from Löbianity, and "2)" above (the scientist) is governed by theoretical artificial intelligence (Case and
Smith, Oherson, Stob, Weinstein). Here the results are not just
NON-constructive, but are *necessarily* so. Cleverness is just something that we cannot program. But we can prove, non constructively, the existence of powerful learning machine. We just cannot recognize them, or build them. It is like with the algorithmically random strings, we cannot generate them
by a short algorithm, but we can generate all of them by a very short
algorithm.

So, concerning intelligence/consciousness (as opposed to cleverness), I
think we have passed the "singularity". Nothing is more
intelligent/conscious than a virgin universal machine. By programming it, we
can only make his "soul" fell, and, in the worst case, we might get
something as stupid as human, capable of feeling itself superior, for
example.

Bruno





http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en .


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.

Reply via email to