On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 6:48:51 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 4:31 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:19:54 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: >> >> On 10/16/2012 12:41 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: >> >> On 10/16/2012 2:42 PM, meekerdb wrote: >> >> On 10/16/2012 7:44 AM, Stephen P. King wrote: >> >> Hi Alberto, >> >> OK, I am officially confused by your statements. You previously >> wrote: "Magic emergence from magic enough complexity has been advocated for >> almost anything." and now you suggest that consciousness is contingent on a >> level of evolution, ala: "... in this stage of evolution a form of >> consciousness becomes a necessity". >> How is this not an argument for emergence from complexity? What is >> evolution other than a mechanism in Nature to generate increasing stable >> complex structures in the physical universe? Either consciousness is an >> irreducible primitive or it is not? >> I agree that complexity *is* involved when we consider issues such as >> "reportablity" of consciousness, but the property of "having a subjective >> experience of being in the world" itself can be strongly argued to flow at >> the most basic level that allows differences. >> >> >> If there are no inputs from the world to perceive, e.g. a person in a >> sensory deprivation tank, or the 'perceptions' are very simple >> interactions, e.g. an orbital electron scattering a photon what will be the >> content of this subjective experience? >> >> Brent >> -- >> >> Hi Brent, >> >> How so? Do we humans have "orbital electron scattering" of photonsas >> actual experiential content? >> >> >> No, but Craig thinks electrons do. >> > > Only if electrons actually exist. I think there is a good chance that they > are only the shared experience of atoms. > > > Hi Craig, > > Well, we differ on that point! If we accept atoms, we also have to > accept electrons! Best not go there! >
Unfortunately if I doubt photons really the whole Standard Model is potentially up for grabs. The wide variation in the modeling of atoms tells me that it is not a given that electrons are not just an accounting of atomic charge states. It may be that electrons are objective in some senses but subjective in others (photons being subjective in more ways). That seems the most likely. Do we have a way of isolating electrons which are independent of ions? When I look up the research online, it is always (naturally) a foregone conclusion that they do exist in isolation but I haven't found anything which explains how specifically we know that (or how we could know that). I'm not anxious to try to advocate for electron agnosticism on top of photon agnosticism, but if there is nothing convince me otherwise, then there is no reason not to go there as well (other than fear of ridicule, which I only care about if I'm actually wrong). Craig > > > >> >> It seems to me that all talk of "orbital electron scattering a photon"that >> is an abstract narrative that we talk to each other about and use to >> make predictions of phenomena that is within our sphere of mutual >> non-contradiction. >> >> >> Sure, the 3p story is one we create to explain intersubjective agreement >> about 1p experience. But my point is that consciousness is not basic, >> otherwise it wouldn't need external stimuli to avoid infinite loops. >> > > I can't find anything about infinite loops associated with sensory > deprivation. I have never heard it mentioned and even the author of this > article > http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/the-nothing-eaters/Content?oid=5539022spent > 90 to 2.5 hours in there with no mention of any such thing. > > Craig > > > It follows from the necessary definition of self-representation. As > some might say, "it's in the math, man!". > > -- > Onward! > > Stephen > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/PX0uvauOLj8J. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
