On 12 Jun 2015, at 20:50, meekerdb wrote:
On 6/12/2015 8:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 10 Jun 2015, at 21:00, meekerdb wrote:
On 6/10/2015 1:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 10 Jun 2015, at 01:15, meekerdb wrote:
On 6/9/2015 11:04 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
You say that comp is useless, but what is your theory of mind.
What is not Turing emulable in the brain?
Its interaction with the universe.
Are you sure it is not the interaction with God?
Dunno, Samiya seems to the expert on what God does.
Samya did not invoke God as an explanation! Usually she (to easily)
make that understanding beyond human comprehension. (Which is true,
but might be of the type G* minus G.)
What is the need to invoke a universe when we might perhaps be on
an explanation of where the appearance of the universe, and
consciousness/knowledge come from, in a testable way?
That is exactly my criticism of your theory. I think you do need to
invoke a universe, i.e. an environment, in order to supply meaning
to computations and avoid the absurdity of the rock that computes
everything.
I need a universal system, or a universal machine, or a universal
number (we get all of those simultaneously).
I made my assumpition clear: I assume K, S, their combinations, and
the axioms Kxy = x, and Sxyz= xz(yz), or if you prefer, the numbers, +
RA axioms. Nothing more, in the TOE.
But if you have to invoke a universe to explain how computation
instantiates thought
I need only a universal machine, which instanciates the thought of
other machine.
you can't use thought to explain the universe.
Nor to explain numbers or combinators. That is why I need to postulate
them. Logic alone cannot do that, but I don't need to assume a
physical universe. On the contrary, adding that assumption makes us
losing the mind-body solution provided by computationalism.
It's just another aspect of the "white rabbit" problem (whose name I
have never understood; white rabbits are common).
I quoted the passage of Alice in Wonderland which justifies that
appellation. The white rabbit has a coat, a clock, and say "too late,
too late ...", and then go in the deep rabbit hole :)
It's all very well to say thought is computation
Thought is as much a computation than a centimeter is energy.
Computation can support a thought in some relative way (relative to
one universal number above the substitution level, and an infinity of
computations below).
and all computation is implicit in arithmetic
Well, it is implicit if you agree that the distribution of the prime
numbers is implicit in arithmetic. OK.
so all thought is implicit in arithmetic. The problem is getting it
out - showing that the rock computes something, not everything.
A rock does not compute, and with UDA a rock is a first person
sharable product of the universal mind (the mind of the universal
machine).
The problem is only to get the measure, and here the machine itself
gives sense to a quantization whoich seems promising to get something
close to the empiric quantum measure. So we can test the idea.
Keep in mind that we try to solve the mind-body problem. That we get
an explanation why there is something instead of nothing, assuming
arithmetic, is a by product.
That explains it all (almost) as the Löbian machine, like PA, can
already justify why, if consistent, they cannot justify the SK axioms
(or the arithmetical axioms) from less. It might be the only thing
that we cannot explain.
Bruno
Brent
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