On 02 Jul 2015, at 22:40, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>> Does "you" mean John Clark who is currently experiencing
Helsinki, or does "you" mean John Clark who remembers experiencing
Helsinki?
> We have agreed that they are the same person.
NO, we most certainly have NOT agreed they are the same person! They
are both John Clark
That is what we agree on.
but they do not refer to the same thing. If the personal pronoun
"you" has the meaning commonly used in everyday life then "you"
means the guys who remember being John Clark in Helsinki, and then
"you" does indeed survive and obviously "you" will see Moscow AND
"you" will see Washington;
In the 3-1 view. For the million times: yes that is correct, but is
not an answer to the question asked. It is used to get the answer.
Indeed if you agree that in the 3-1 view we have that "you" will see
Moscow AND "you" will see Washington, then knowing that you will not
see both at once, you can easily predict "W or M" for both the 1-
views of the copies. Indeed, bot will write respecively "I see only
one city M (resp. W).
but if "you" means John Clark who is *currently* experiencing
Helsinki then "you" will not survive and "you" will NOT see
Washington and "you" will NOT see Moscow.
No, we have a billion times agree that John Clark is the guy
remembering that he is John Clark, of that he is the guy pushing the
button in Helsinki, and surviving in both city (in the 3-1-view).
I'm surprised I have to explain all this, I thought logicians were
supposed to be good at this sort of thing.
But we have understood since day zero. But you evade the answer, which
is about THE unique city that the guy in Helsinki will see after
pushing the button. It can only be either W, or M, and never both at
once.
>>> you are the guy, and will remain the guy, with that memory of
your time in Helsinki. So no ambiguity.
>> OK good that is not ambiguous and is clear as a bell, "you" are
the guys who remember being John Clark the Helsinki Man, and so
"you" will indeed survive.
> Good.
So given that definition of the personal pronoun that we both agree
on, a logician would have to agree that "you" will see Moscow AND
Washington.
In the 3-1 view, but that is not the answer to the question asked. It
is a step toward the answer as I explain above.
"You" will open two doors only from the perspective of an outsider.
That is not the first person perspective of John Clark,
AHHHH! Bruno Marchal just said "you" means "the guy with that memory
of your time in Helsinki" but now Bruno Marchal is changing the
meaning of "you" to something else yet again, and nobody knows what
that new meaning is, including Bruno Marchal.
I did not. I was just kindly attempting to make sense of what you said
and get the contradiction from it.
>>> 3) opening the door of a reconstitution box and see two cities
at once?
>> 100%
> Then none of JCW nor JCM needs any means (phone, mobile) to
communicate, and you are pertending that duplicate brain get
telepathic power, where comp + the protocole makes this false.
I'll be damned if I can see what telepathic power has to do with any
of this. And the above beautifully illustrates why I keep saying
that whatever the hell "comp" means it certainly doesn't mean
computationalism.
So you agree that they have no mean to even know if their doppelganger
has been reconstituted, which illustrate again that the prediction on
the unique future 1-you is "W OR M", and not "W and M".
>>> Note that by definition of first person experience, "seeing two
cities at once" means literally being a person [blah blah]
>> STOP RIGHT THERE! If as Bruno Marchal just said "you" means the
guys who remember being John Clark the Helsinki Man then after the
duplication there is not "a person" who fits that description, there
are "persons" who fit that description .
> Exactly, so we have to look at both 1-diaries, and both contains
"I see only one door and one city behind"
OK we need to do some heavy duty mathematics here. If "you" saw
Moscow (and the guy who remembers being the Helsinki Man did see
Moscow) and if "you" saw Washington (and the guy who remembers being
the Helsinki Man did see Washington), then how many cities did "you"
see?
One. because I have been duplicated, so, although "(I see W) & (I see
M)" can make sense in the 3-1 view, in the 1-view, I can only see one
city *subjectively"
(I write M in the diary and I write W in the diary) does not entail "I
write W and M in the unique diary".
I think the answer is 2 because I'm pretty sure that 1+1=2, but
difficult calculations should always be independently checked, so
get out your calculator and see if that's what you get.
2 for the 3-1 view, and 1 for the 1-view I can hope for when betting
on computationalism.
I think that you error can be summed up by the fact that you derive "I
will write both M and W in the unique diary " which is false, from the
3-1 correct "I write M in the diary and I write W in the diary".
Just interview all copies, and it becomes obvious.
Bruno
John K Clark
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