On 07 Aug 2015, at 02:59, Pierz wrote:
On Thursday, August 6, 2015 at 8:06:31 PM UTC+10, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 06 Aug 2015, at 02:39, Pierz wrote:
> Mein Gott, this argument reminds me of the fire in Siberia that
> started burning in the Holocene and is still going. Why do you keep
> taking the troll bait Bruno?
Because it is not under my back, and I want to make clear that the
person who have a problem with this are troll.
> JC is a physicist so I presume he understands Everett. Ergo, he
> understands, in principle, first person indeterminacy.
See the attempt by Quentin and others to make John C realizing this,
but he answers by the same hand-waving method, confirming (that's the
goal of answering) that he is a troll.
> He just loves tormenting you.
Possible. But then why? Jealousy? Inability to say "I was wrong"?
I try to understand such "bad faith" as this might make the difference
between coming back to the scientific attitude in theology next
century or next millennium. My goal is harm reduction, and the sooner
we can be serious on this, the less useless suffering for humans.
> You can ask the simple question: if the quantum state evolves
> deterministically where does randomness come from according to MWI?
> I'd like to hear JC's answer to that. If he says it's due to
> multiple versions of the observer ending up in different branches of
> the multiverse, he's shown he understands. If he refuses to
> acknowledge MWI as a valid account due to his pronoun concerns, then
> fine, maybe he should publish a refutation of Everett to that
> effect. I'm sure the physics world would be fascinated to learn of
> its error.
John Clark has given already both answers, and has oscillate between
accepting the FPI o-and rejecting it. When he accepts it, he insist it
is trivial and does not deserve the Nobel Prize (like if that was on
the table!), but fail to explain why he still does not address the
next step in the reasoning. I think that to avoid this, he knows
prefer to stick on his 1p3p-difference abstraction of.
Keep in mind that I got the 1p-indeterminacy more than 40 years ago,
and that I have never had any problem in explaining it to scientist.
But then some scientist decided that it was philosophy, and hired some
(non-analytical) philosopher who pretended that the FPI does not
exist. As I have never been able to met them, I felt frustated (for 40
years)
I see, I think. JC is a proxy for the guy who robbed you of your
prize, and you're still hoping for a victory of logic over malice.
Actually, that is what I try to see. I am still not sure. Sometimes
ago there was a guy named "digital physics". That was a proxy if not
one of the main guy, perhaps push by his own colleagues.
You're still trying to deal with your hurt.
Certainly. But not to ease the hurting (I know very good medication
for that), but to grasp where such "malice" comes from, as eventually,
those people only advertize their own dumbness (and then are forced to
not deviate from it as they thought that would it more publicly
palpable).
But, yes, when I got the price, I really thought that this was the end
of 20 years of harassment. But then the price has only spread the
harrasment in other countries.
Once that kind of things happens, it concerns no more just me, but
everyone. It means we are confronted with either bandits (like in the
health politics) or a dangerous form of fundamentalism.
In Australia we have a term for what John is doing; it's considered
a national pastime: cutting down the tall poppies. Whenever someone
sticks their head up above the crowd with a claim to greatness or
originality, somebody will try to lop their head off out of jealousy
and small-mindedness. John tries to act as if it's all about the
logic, but his nastiness and sarcasm give away the underlying
emotional motivations of a thwarted embittered person who hasn't
achieved the recognition he craves and so feels compelled to cut
down anyone who dares to stand out with a claim for attention.
I am afraid you are right.
so I still try to see where is the problem: and JC helps a lot
in showing that the problem is simply its inability, or unwillingness,
to take the 1p/3p difference into account in the question and
verification. But he has show to grasp the difference, so it is
probably just unwillingness.
Then the question remains: why such unwillingness? I'm afraid it is
just jealousy or something of that type. each post by JC confirms
that, and it *might* someday help people to understand how
obscurantist people can be on this subject.
Then JC, like Jean-Paul Delahaye, makes me think that maybe the FPI
does deserve the Nobel Prize after all. If it is that subtle to grasp
for grown up, it might be worth to make clearer. After all, all the
rest of the work exploit that FPI. Tegmark and Schmidhuber missed it,
as Tegmark confirms by "rediscovering it" in his book (as Jason Resch
quoted some times ago).
So, the FPI is certainly very simple, but the 1p/3p difference is not
that simple for some physicists and philosophers (sic), as the way JC
and some part of the academical world have illustrated since long.
Another problem, is that his post confused people, so we have to
answer them for possible new bees.
Yes. The western scientific mindset has become so conditioned to
think only in terms of 3p, that it is difficult for some people to
think any other way. These are the same people who fail to grasp the
"hard problem".
Well seen. Sometimes, they believe that mind, spirit, consciousness or
first person notion are just crackpot notions. So they demolish papers
just reading the "keyword". Then, later, they get evidence that all
defnitions where given in the usual 3p ways, but then it is too late,
as if they change their mind on this, they would confess not having
read the paper that they have demolished, which is not well seen of
course. When, above all this, they were manipulated by a harasser, it
is psychologically impossible for them to change their mind, as this
is extremely humiliating.
Now, anyone can ask more interesting question, or discuss other
points... It is not difficult to filter the thread if annoyed by the
admittedly boring repetition of Clarks last attempt to ridicule the
notion.
Oh nobody is compelling me to follow the saga! It exasperates me a
little when the digest arrives in my email and I see more
"bullshit!" from JC, but it's no skin off my nose. Carry on by all
means - I expect to see the Siberian fires still burning in 2020! :)
2020? That would be nice.
Let us try to influence the world so that such kind of crap does not
last up to 3020 ....
There are progress. Now harassment is illegal, and people can be
condemned, which is good. The harassers are close to serial killers
type of profile, they get many victims, and usually the victim kill
themselves. It is not well known, because in our society there is a
"normal" harassing background often confused with "moral harassment",
that is the work of "perverse narcissist " (as they are called also,
in french: it is close to psychopathy). The catholic clergy is in
advance on such matter compared to many academies or societies (said
in passing).
Bruno
It is "holiday". The list is quite, so take this as a little snack,
like an attempt to understand the psychology of trolls and harassers,
or just skip those posts, and enjoy the sun and the beach :)
Bruno
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
