On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: >> >> God is omnipotent and you are confused as to why I should think such a >> beings should be able to convince me He exists if He really does! > > > > > I don't believe in such a God. I cannot make sense of omnipotence. >
If you insist on using common English words in non-standard ways it's your own damn fault if you're constantly misunderstood! I've never even met you and yet you've managed to convince me that you exist, but "God" whatever the hell you mean by word, is unable to convince me that He exist. Congratulations, you can do something "God" cannot. Vague imprecise language does have one advantage, it masks vague imprecise thought. >> >> >> Google doesn't know what "primary physical universe" means so I'm not >> sure what you're asking. I can think of 3 possibilities. >> 1) Do I think a mind can derive the laws of logic from the laws of >> physics? >> Yes. > > > > I guess you mean a person. OK. But this is trivial given that the physical > laws, or at least their formulation assume some logic. > Assumptions that have been experimentally confirmed. We've noted that 2 trees and 2 trees make 4 trees, and 2 rocks and 2 rocks make 4 rocks, and we use induction to assume that pattern will hold true for 2 of anything. So far that assumption looks pretty good, although some events at the quantum level might produce a little unease. >> > 2) Do I think a mind can derive all the laws of physics we see and none of > the laws of physics we don't see from nothing but the laws of logic? > Maybe, but probably not. > > > > > No. This is impossible. > If you're right (and you probably are) then physics can tell us things about the world that logic and mathematics can not, and therefore physics is more fundamental. > >> 3) Do I think a mind can be derived from nothing but the laws of logic? >> No. > > > OK. > So we have something else that physics can do but logic alone can not; naked logic can not make a mind but matter that obeys the laws of physics can. >> >> So you tell me, do I "believe in a primary physical universe"? > > > > > Only if you believe that it is possible to explain all sciences from the > laws of physics. > We both agree a mind can derive the laws of logic from the laws of physics. We both agree a mind probably can not derive the laws of physics from the laws of of logic . and we agree that naked logic can not make a mind but matter that obeys the laws of physics can. So if physics can't explain something what can? > Do you believe that physics is or could be the fundamental science? > If we both agree that physics can do things that mathematics can not it should be obvious which is more fundamental. >> >> There is an interesting quotation from Hugh Everett, the man who >> created the Many World's interpretation of Quantum Mechanics: >> *"When a observer splits it is meaningless to ask which of the final >> observers corresponds to the initial one since each possess the total >> memory of the first, it is as foolish as asking which amoeba is the >> original after it splits into two". * > > > > > Can you give the reference? > That quotation came from Everett's PhD thesis where he introduced the concept of Many Worlds, but was not in the version published in 1957. Originally Everett's thesis was 137 pages long but John Wheeler, Everett's thesis adviser, made him cut out about half of it including the entire chapter on information and probability which today many consider the best part of the work. Wheeler also didn't like the word "split" and was especially uncomfortable with talk of conscious observers splitting . Everett's complete thesis with no cuts was not published until 1973. John K Clark c <everything-list@googlegroups.com> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
