> On 20 Jul 2019, at 00:14, Philip Thrift <cloudver...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 4:51:22 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > On 7/19/2019 3:18 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 3:52:05 AM UTC-5, telmo wrote: >> >> >> ... >> You insist that nobody has been able to produce a computer without using >> matter. I agree. What you refuse to consider is the possibility that matter >> is the dream of computations, and not the other way around. Whatever we are, >> it seems clear that we are bound to perceive reality as made of matter, but >> it doesn't follow that matter is the ultimate reality. This is just Plato's >> Cave with modern language. >> >> Telmo. >> >> >> >> I've been perplexed for 50 years how the idea of immaterialism (that there >> is something other than matter) came to be. >> >> The so-called abstractions - like the definition of the Turing machine you >> read in a textbook - are just fictions. But fictions can be useful. Maybe >> there should be a better word for useful fictions. Math is as good as any, >> for part of that anyway. >> >> The old guys, Thales, Democritus, Epicurus, were curious about matter. Where >> did this bizarre trend towards immaterialism come from? > > It came from death; from observing that there was no difference between a > dead man and that same man who was alive a few minutes ago except that the > former was missing something, some animation, some spirit, some magic sauce. > And this thing seemed to go temporarily missing if you took a blow to the > head. It didn't seem to be matter because it couldn't be detected leaving > the body at death. And yet you could lie perfectly still and still have > this internal narrative and feelings. > > Brent > >> >> The original sin of philosophy occurred when mathematical and mental (and >> computational) entities were abstracted away from their material home. >> >> @pphilipthrift >> - > > > Epicurus was an advancement soon forgotten: > > > https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epicurus/ > > Had a description of nature based on atomistic materialism, and a > naturalistic account of evolution. > > On the basis of a radical materialism which dispensed with transcendent > entities such as the Platonic Ideas or Forms, he could disprove the > possibility of the soul’s survival after death, and hence the prospect of > punishment in the afterlife.
The idea that there is no afterlife looks like wishful thinking to me. I tend to not believe that God is a punisher, but with mechanism the afterlife could be very close to the state you get to when dying, and dying under totoure might send you in the arithmetical help. We can hope of jumps though, but nothing is obvious here, and mechanism makes torture more bad than it already is. Also, what is radical materialism? You do need relation between the material objects to get machines and organisms, and I am not sure your matter theory can work without using some (immaterial) ideas. > > Soul atoms are particularly fine and are distributed throughout the body, and > it is by means of them that we have sensations and the experience of pain and > pleasure. Body without soul atoms is unconscious and inert, and when the > atoms of the body are disarranged so that it can no longer support conscious > life, the soul atoms are scattered and no longer retain the capacity for > sensation. This looks like Lavoisier atoms of cold and hot. Bruno > > > @philipthrift > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5241f768-ba25-4348-b3e7-0cd488f9439b%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5241f768-ba25-4348-b3e7-0cd488f9439b%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/914A27E7-F148-470A-BA0D-A37CC75AC596%40ulb.ac.be.
