Hey Edg, I'll have to check again tonight, but when I floated thru your office the other night, I thot for sure one of those stautues was a bust. Speaking of busts, those old Playboys you've got stashed away are a hoot.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung <no_re...@...> wrote: > > Turq, > > I find it strange that you are being somewhat "pro lucid dreaming" > when I compare that to your POV about oogabooganess in general. > > I've but dabbled with lucid dreaming, so I can't go toe to toe with > you, but I can ask questions of you that should clarify some things > for me if you honestly answer. > > If you truly believe that you and others were "meeting in the astral" > or "were in the same dream" . . . whatever, then there's easy and > scientific experiments you could conduct that would prove if such an > experience is real or merely imagination. > > So, here's an experiment: All you have to do is come out of a lucid > dream and tell what you saw in another physical location and then > check to see if that is true. > > I have four statues on my desk, so presumably an adept at lucid > dreaming should be able to hover over my desk and wake up with > information about the statues. I'm betting you'll say you personally > cannot do this, but it seems you'll also say that IT CAN BE DONE. I'm > saying that if someone cannot pony up the correct information about my > statues (or meet other such testing challenges) then "astral > traveling" remains unproved. But you seem to be a cheerleader for the > validity of the concept, and that seems at odds with your other POVs. > > I'm shocked that you are being such a "pushover" about the reports > about lucid dreaming, and I'm at the same time fascinated and wanting > to know how that all works inside your logic systems. Your statement > about actually doing lucid dreaming that is, to you, valid, and that > you are saying that almost anyone can gain this skill, makes it > astounding that science hasn't nailed this phenomenon down pat by now. > In fact, I would challenge ANY lucid dreamer to pass The Great > Randi's test and collect his cash reward -- surely, also, the NSA and > other black-op governmental wogs would be all over this ability as a > threat to national security -- some terrorist should be able to dream > about, what?, passwords, account numbers, conversations the President > is having with top militarists, spy on any operation, etc. > > The whole thing stinks of scam when real world concerns would have > discovered and used the ability to "astral travel" for many many many > reasons. Where's the beef? > > All that said, how's 'bout this: If someone can guide their dreams, > then why not simply have the intention to "be enlightened," or, say, > "meet Krishna," or, hey, my favorite, "have the dream character > meditate and see what happens, cuz, in the astral, why, you're right > next door to ritam levels, and the siddhis surely must be far more > intense and productive etc. when one can mindfully be at that lesser > state of excitation that, by definition, the astral state must be." > So??? Got beef? > > But these things are not commonly attempted by lucid dreamers, and in > fact, a brief survey of lucid dreamers' accounts of their experiences > will yield a vast profusion of the most ordinary kind of dreaming > material -- there is almost no clamoring in the lucid dreaming > community for having their "best dreamers" be tested as The Great > Randi might suggest. > > I do agree that witnessing dreams is possible, but I think it's a > skill that only the most adept yogi-types can be expected to have much > skill in doing. > > I'm convinced that it is a case of "what happens in meat, only happens > in meat." Imagination is incredibly powerful, and the willingness to > be fooled is commonplace. > > A good lucid dreamer should be able to completely convince any > scientist in short order -- but it simply has not happened, right? > > Edg > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > Consider this an Edg-like rap, in the tradition of > > determining whether anyone here on FFL is interested > > in the odd things I am, and wants to "swap stories." > > It's also a rap addressing ED's complaint that nobody > > ever talks about their "spiritual experiences." > > > > I recently posted a rap about Lucid Dreaming. It is > > pasted in at the bottom of this post. What I'm inter- > > ested in is whether anyone on FFL has had experiences > > of this sort, and wants to rap about them. No "experts," > > no dogma, just rappin'...trying to figure things out. > > > > The Rama fellow I studied with for many years taught > > Lucid Dreaming. He taught it in the context of Tibetan > > Dream Yoga, but the techniques were the same as those > > I've later found in Native American shamanism and > > other disciplines. The "Tibetan connection" is that > > in that tradition Lucid Dreaming is seen as analogous > > to (or synonymous with) the Bardo state between death > > and rebirth, and thus developing a facility with > > "waking up in the dream, and being able to manipulate > > the dream state" is seen as valuable to a culture in > > which the teachings of The Tibetan Book Of The Dead > > are assumed as a given. If you can wake up in a normal > > dream, and use your intention there in the astral, then > > it is assumed that you might also be able to do the > > same thing in the Bardo, and thus have a shot at a > > cooler rebirth. > > > > Basically, the definition of Lucid Dreaming I am using > > for this rap, and calling for stories about, has to do > > with the *interactive* nature of Lucid Dreaming. It is > > *not* the same as "witnessing dreams," because that > > phenomenon is usually described as passive. Depending > > on the spiritual culture, the "witness" in "witnessing > > dreams" may be considered to be the self, or the Self. > > For the purposes of this rap, that distinction doesn't > > matter. All that matters is when that self or Self > > decides to "wake up" and take an interactive, > > *intentional* role in the dream. > > > > For example, if you wake up in the dream and find yourself > > in a room that has purple wallpaper, and you don't like > > the color purple, you can change the color of it in an > > instant. Just *intend* the color blue, and zap!, you're > > in a blue-colored room. If you find yourself in a location > > that doesn't quite do it for you, you can switch locations > > equally quickly and easily. That sorta thing. > > > > In the Rama trip, he first taught all of his students the > > basics of Dream Yoga or Lucid Dreaming, and had us prac- > > tice on our own for some time. Then, after enough students > > reported gaining a facility with it, he started having > > "dream seminars." They were fun. > > > > What he'd do is announce that on a certain night he was > > "open for business" as a spiritual teacher, but in the > > dream plane. He wouldn't tell us where, or how to "get > > there." That was our challenge, or task. To accomplish it, > > you'd have to first wake up in the dream, and then focus > > on his "vibe" or energy, and see if you could find the > > group. If you did, there was often a talk going on, or > > a demonstration of some abilities or siddhis, or just a > > party. Interestingly, many times students would see other > > students that they recognized in the "dream seminars," > > say something to them, and then ask them later in the > > waking state to repeat it back to them. They were often > > able to do so. Go figure. > > > > Anyway, I always thought that Lucid Dreaming was FUN, and > > so I continued practicing it after I left the Rama trip, > > first from books on the subject, but later with a group > > that my girlfriend at the time (a Native American who was > > interested in such things) stumbled onto in Santa Fe. > > Again, the same sorts of scenarios took place. It was fun, > > but I lost interest in the group about the same time the > > girlfriend lost interest in me. She was 24 years younger > > than I was, so this did not exactly take me by surprise > > or devastate my world. :-) > > > > I guess the coolest Lucid Dreaming story I could tell is > > the funniest (from my point of view, anyway). For whatever > > reason, I just don't DO nightmares. I can count the number > > of nightmares or "bad dreams" I've had in my life on one > > hand. But in one of these rare "bad dreams," I had awakened > > in the dream and found myself being pursued by astral bad- > > asses who clearly intended to do me harm. I ran from them, > > and "astral teleported" to other locations to try to get > > away from them, but nothing worked. They kept following me, > > and kept threatening me. So I decided, in the dream, to > > wake up *from* the dream. > > > > Voila. I found myself in my own bed at home. The rare "bad > > dream" had been bad enough that I was still feeling some > > uneasiness from it, so on impulse I reached over and grabbed > > the katana (Japanese samurai sword) that I keep by my bed. > > (Old habit from my martial arts days...don't ask.) Anyway, > > I brought the sword back into bed with me and closed my > > eyes and tried to go back to sleep, since it was still the > > middle of the night and I had to work the next morning. > > > > Voila. I'm back in the same dream, with the same "having > > woken up in the dream" mindstate, and faced with the same > > badasses. But there's a difference. This time I had the > > sword with me. > > > > To paraphrase W.C. Fields, "I hacked my way through mounds > > of (astral) flesh." Bye-bye badasses. I woke up laughing, > > and the badasses never appeared in my dreams again, ever. > > > > Anyway, that's just a fun story, provided as a "seed story" > > to see if anyone here has similar Lucid Dreaming stories > > to share or rap about. If so, cool. If not, cool. At least > > I tried... > > > > > > > Thinking back to recent discussions about > > > dreaming here, and the obvious fact that no > > > one involved in that discussion had ever > > > practiced lucid dreaming, I realize that I > > > should explain a little more about it. > > > > > > It is non-meditative in nature, and involves > > > simple mental and physical practices with the > > > goal of awakening in one's dreams and learn- > > > ing to control them. There is no goal of > > > "enlightenment" or anything like that in mind. > > > > > > That said, the thing that I have heard people > > > on this forum describe as "witnessing" of dreams > > > and/or deep sleep is viewed in lucid dreaming > > > circles as a preliminary step. It can be easily > > > achieved by almost everyone, within a month or > > > two of doing their exercises. > > > > > > But *in their view* (which I am not trying to > > > elevate or glorify or defend, merely to explain), > > > mere passive witnessing of dreams is *not the > > > point*. In their view, the *next step* after > > > developing this witnessing aspect of dreaming > > > is *waking up in the dream*, being able to > > > take an active (as opposed to passive witness) > > > role in them, and direct them. > > > > > > Sample exercises that lucid dreamers practice > > > while learning how to do this all tend to > > > involve *intention*. Once the "witness" thing > > > is a given, you decide before sleeping to *do* > > > something to alter the course of the dream. > > > You might try to find your hands (many will > > > recognize this from Castaneda), or travel to > > > a particular place, or remember to say a > > > certain phrase. If you can do that, it has > > > a kind of "snap" effect, and snap! you are > > > awake in the dream. At that point you can go > > > anywhere and do anything you want. > > > > > > Once one has gotten to this point, other exer- > > > cises can be done, and in a group. For example, > > > the group of students can agree to "meet" in > > > a predetermined place in the dream. Once there, > > > they can experiment with telling each other > > > things or doing things that they can then > > > check on with the other students in the waking > > > state, to see if the other person experienced > > > the same thing you did when "talking" to them > > > or interacting with them in the dream. > > > > > > It's a real trip, lemme tell you. I studied > > > lucid dreaming with Rama, and then on my own > > > from books, and then later in a group of people > > > who were interested in the phenomenon, and were > > > working with a Yaqui teacher in Santa Fe to > > > master it. It was way fun, and I got fairly > > > good at it. > > > > > > But, to be honest, after a few months it lost > > > its charm and I didn't continue it. Now it's > > > like I have the "option" to wake up in my > > > dreams if I want, but most of the time I don't, > > > and just let what happens happen. > > > > > > I'm bringing it up just to make the point that > > > "witnessing" does not mean the same thing or > > > have the same value to all spiritual seekers. > > > In the TMO, it is often viewed as a goal, or > > > a "symptom" of enlightenment. Among this group > > > of lucid dreamers I worked with, it was clearly > > > viewed as a preliminary step, one that was a > > > stepping stone to more interesting things. > > > > > > It's all POV. Sometimes it's good to consider > > > the possibility that the POV you've been taught > > > is "highest" may not be. > > >
