No busts over here. Wanna try another guess? Playboys? Here? As if. Real sex is how I roll.
What I do think you DO know is "why you posted this." And, if you could expound on that, hey, we'd all be agog if it were done with clarity. I'm an easy target here for this kind of teasing, but far harder to see is the mechanics of how my presentation triggers responses in others. I don't mind the elbow in the ribs, but I do wonder about the motivation to have done so. Maybe I'm reading you wrongly, Larry, er, what was your intent with the post? Edg --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" <inmadi...@...> wrote: > > Hey Edg, > > I'll have to check again tonight, but when I floated thru your office > the other night, I thot for sure one of those stautues was a bust. > Speaking of busts, those old Playboys you've got stashed away are a hoot. > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Duveyoung <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > Turq, > > > > I find it strange that you are being somewhat "pro lucid dreaming" > > when I compare that to your POV about oogabooganess in general. > > > > I've but dabbled with lucid dreaming, so I can't go toe to toe with > > you, but I can ask questions of you that should clarify some things > > for me if you honestly answer. > > > > If you truly believe that you and others were "meeting in the astral" > > or "were in the same dream" . . . whatever, then there's easy and > > scientific experiments you could conduct that would prove if such an > > experience is real or merely imagination. > > > > So, here's an experiment: All you have to do is come out of a lucid > > dream and tell what you saw in another physical location and then > > check to see if that is true. > > > > I have four statues on my desk, so presumably an adept at lucid > > dreaming should be able to hover over my desk and wake up with > > information about the statues. I'm betting you'll say you personally > > cannot do this, but it seems you'll also say that IT CAN BE DONE. I'm > > saying that if someone cannot pony up the correct information about my > > statues (or meet other such testing challenges) then "astral > > traveling" remains unproved. But you seem to be a cheerleader for the > > validity of the concept, and that seems at odds with your other POVs. > > > > I'm shocked that you are being such a "pushover" about the reports > > about lucid dreaming, and I'm at the same time fascinated and wanting > > to know how that all works inside your logic systems. Your statement > > about actually doing lucid dreaming that is, to you, valid, and that > > you are saying that almost anyone can gain this skill, makes it > > astounding that science hasn't nailed this phenomenon down pat by now. > > In fact, I would challenge ANY lucid dreamer to pass The Great > > Randi's test and collect his cash reward -- surely, also, the NSA and > > other black-op governmental wogs would be all over this ability as a > > threat to national security -- some terrorist should be able to dream > > about, what?, passwords, account numbers, conversations the President > > is having with top militarists, spy on any operation, etc. > > > > The whole thing stinks of scam when real world concerns would have > > discovered and used the ability to "astral travel" for many many many > > reasons. Where's the beef? > > > > All that said, how's 'bout this: If someone can guide their dreams, > > then why not simply have the intention to "be enlightened," or, say, > > "meet Krishna," or, hey, my favorite, "have the dream character > > meditate and see what happens, cuz, in the astral, why, you're right > > next door to ritam levels, and the siddhis surely must be far more > > intense and productive etc. when one can mindfully be at that lesser > > state of excitation that, by definition, the astral state must be." > > So??? Got beef? > > > > But these things are not commonly attempted by lucid dreamers, and in > > fact, a brief survey of lucid dreamers' accounts of their experiences > > will yield a vast profusion of the most ordinary kind of dreaming > > material -- there is almost no clamoring in the lucid dreaming > > community for having their "best dreamers" be tested as The Great > > Randi might suggest. > > > > I do agree that witnessing dreams is possible, but I think it's a > > skill that only the most adept yogi-types can be expected to have much > > skill in doing. > > > > I'm convinced that it is a case of "what happens in meat, only happens > > in meat." Imagination is incredibly powerful, and the willingness to > > be fooled is commonplace. > > > > A good lucid dreamer should be able to completely convince any > > scientist in short order -- but it simply has not happened, right? > > > > Edg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <no_reply@> wrote: > > > > > > Consider this an Edg-like rap, in the tradition of > > > determining whether anyone here on FFL is interested > > > in the odd things I am, and wants to "swap stories." > > > It's also a rap addressing ED's complaint that nobody > > > ever talks about their "spiritual experiences." > > > > > > I recently posted a rap about Lucid Dreaming. It is > > > pasted in at the bottom of this post. What I'm inter- > > > ested in is whether anyone on FFL has had experiences > > > of this sort, and wants to rap about them. No "experts," > > > no dogma, just rappin'...trying to figure things out. > > > > > > The Rama fellow I studied with for many years taught > > > Lucid Dreaming. He taught it in the context of Tibetan > > > Dream Yoga, but the techniques were the same as those > > > I've later found in Native American shamanism and > > > other disciplines. The "Tibetan connection" is that > > > in that tradition Lucid Dreaming is seen as analogous > > > to (or synonymous with) the Bardo state between death > > > and rebirth, and thus developing a facility with > > > "waking up in the dream, and being able to manipulate > > > the dream state" is seen as valuable to a culture in > > > which the teachings of The Tibetan Book Of The Dead > > > are assumed as a given. If you can wake up in a normal > > > dream, and use your intention there in the astral, then > > > it is assumed that you might also be able to do the > > > same thing in the Bardo, and thus have a shot at a > > > cooler rebirth. > > > > > > Basically, the definition of Lucid Dreaming I am using > > > for this rap, and calling for stories about, has to do > > > with the *interactive* nature of Lucid Dreaming. It is > > > *not* the same as "witnessing dreams," because that > > > phenomenon is usually described as passive. Depending > > > on the spiritual culture, the "witness" in "witnessing > > > dreams" may be considered to be the self, or the Self. > > > For the purposes of this rap, that distinction doesn't > > > matter. All that matters is when that self or Self > > > decides to "wake up" and take an interactive, > > > *intentional* role in the dream. > > > > > > For example, if you wake up in the dream and find yourself > > > in a room that has purple wallpaper, and you don't like > > > the color purple, you can change the color of it in an > > > instant. Just *intend* the color blue, and zap!, you're > > > in a blue-colored room. If you find yourself in a location > > > that doesn't quite do it for you, you can switch locations > > > equally quickly and easily. That sorta thing. > > > > > > In the Rama trip, he first taught all of his students the > > > basics of Dream Yoga or Lucid Dreaming, and had us prac- > > > tice on our own for some time. Then, after enough students > > > reported gaining a facility with it, he started having > > > "dream seminars." They were fun. > > > > > > What he'd do is announce that on a certain night he was > > > "open for business" as a spiritual teacher, but in the > > > dream plane. He wouldn't tell us where, or how to "get > > > there." That was our challenge, or task. To accomplish it, > > > you'd have to first wake up in the dream, and then focus > > > on his "vibe" or energy, and see if you could find the > > > group. If you did, there was often a talk going on, or > > > a demonstration of some abilities or siddhis, or just a > > > party. Interestingly, many times students would see other > > > students that they recognized in the "dream seminars," > > > say something to them, and then ask them later in the > > > waking state to repeat it back to them. They were often > > > able to do so. Go figure. > > > > > > Anyway, I always thought that Lucid Dreaming was FUN, and > > > so I continued practicing it after I left the Rama trip, > > > first from books on the subject, but later with a group > > > that my girlfriend at the time (a Native American who was > > > interested in such things) stumbled onto in Santa Fe. > > > Again, the same sorts of scenarios took place. It was fun, > > > but I lost interest in the group about the same time the > > > girlfriend lost interest in me. She was 24 years younger > > > than I was, so this did not exactly take me by surprise > > > or devastate my world. :-) > > > > > > I guess the coolest Lucid Dreaming story I could tell is > > > the funniest (from my point of view, anyway). For whatever > > > reason, I just don't DO nightmares. I can count the number > > > of nightmares or "bad dreams" I've had in my life on one > > > hand. But in one of these rare "bad dreams," I had awakened > > > in the dream and found myself being pursued by astral bad- > > > asses who clearly intended to do me harm. I ran from them, > > > and "astral teleported" to other locations to try to get > > > away from them, but nothing worked. They kept following me, > > > and kept threatening me. So I decided, in the dream, to > > > wake up *from* the dream. > > > > > > Voila. I found myself in my own bed at home. The rare "bad > > > dream" had been bad enough that I was still feeling some > > > uneasiness from it, so on impulse I reached over and grabbed > > > the katana (Japanese samurai sword) that I keep by my bed. > > > (Old habit from my martial arts days...don't ask.) Anyway, > > > I brought the sword back into bed with me and closed my > > > eyes and tried to go back to sleep, since it was still the > > > middle of the night and I had to work the next morning. > > > > > > Voila. I'm back in the same dream, with the same "having > > > woken up in the dream" mindstate, and faced with the same > > > badasses. But there's a difference. This time I had the > > > sword with me. > > > > > > To paraphrase W.C. Fields, "I hacked my way through mounds > > > of (astral) flesh." Bye-bye badasses. I woke up laughing, > > > and the badasses never appeared in my dreams again, ever. > > > > > > Anyway, that's just a fun story, provided as a "seed story" > > > to see if anyone here has similar Lucid Dreaming stories > > > to share or rap about. If so, cool. If not, cool. At least > > > I tried... > > > > > > > > > > Thinking back to recent discussions about > > > > dreaming here, and the obvious fact that no > > > > one involved in that discussion had ever > > > > practiced lucid dreaming, I realize that I > > > > should explain a little more about it. > > > > > > > > It is non-meditative in nature, and involves > > > > simple mental and physical practices with the > > > > goal of awakening in one's dreams and learn- > > > > ing to control them. There is no goal of > > > > "enlightenment" or anything like that in mind. > > > > > > > > That said, the thing that I have heard people > > > > on this forum describe as "witnessing" of dreams > > > > and/or deep sleep is viewed in lucid dreaming > > > > circles as a preliminary step. It can be easily > > > > achieved by almost everyone, within a month or > > > > two of doing their exercises. > > > > > > > > But *in their view* (which I am not trying to > > > > elevate or glorify or defend, merely to explain), > > > > mere passive witnessing of dreams is *not the > > > > point*. In their view, the *next step* after > > > > developing this witnessing aspect of dreaming > > > > is *waking up in the dream*, being able to > > > > take an active (as opposed to passive witness) > > > > role in them, and direct them. > > > > > > > > Sample exercises that lucid dreamers practice > > > > while learning how to do this all tend to > > > > involve *intention*. Once the "witness" thing > > > > is a given, you decide before sleeping to *do* > > > > something to alter the course of the dream. > > > > You might try to find your hands (many will > > > > recognize this from Castaneda), or travel to > > > > a particular place, or remember to say a > > > > certain phrase. If you can do that, it has > > > > a kind of "snap" effect, and snap! you are > > > > awake in the dream. At that point you can go > > > > anywhere and do anything you want. > > > > > > > > Once one has gotten to this point, other exer- > > > > cises can be done, and in a group. For example, > > > > the group of students can agree to "meet" in > > > > a predetermined place in the dream. Once there, > > > > they can experiment with telling each other > > > > things or doing things that they can then > > > > check on with the other students in the waking > > > > state, to see if the other person experienced > > > > the same thing you did when "talking" to them > > > > or interacting with them in the dream. > > > > > > > > It's a real trip, lemme tell you. I studied > > > > lucid dreaming with Rama, and then on my own > > > > from books, and then later in a group of people > > > > who were interested in the phenomenon, and were > > > > working with a Yaqui teacher in Santa Fe to > > > > master it. It was way fun, and I got fairly > > > > good at it. > > > > > > > > But, to be honest, after a few months it lost > > > > its charm and I didn't continue it. Now it's > > > > like I have the "option" to wake up in my > > > > dreams if I want, but most of the time I don't, > > > > and just let what happens happen. > > > > > > > > I'm bringing it up just to make the point that > > > > "witnessing" does not mean the same thing or > > > > have the same value to all spiritual seekers. > > > > In the TMO, it is often viewed as a goal, or > > > > a "symptom" of enlightenment. Among this group > > > > of lucid dreamers I worked with, it was clearly > > > > viewed as a preliminary step, one that was a > > > > stepping stone to more interesting things. > > > > > > > > It's all POV. Sometimes it's good to consider > > > > the possibility that the POV you've been taught > > > > is "highest" may not be. > > > > > >
