--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "lurkernomore20002000" <steve.sun...@...> wrote: > > In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <no_reply@> wrote: > > "Intervention" would obviate and invalidate the whole > > idea of karma, which IMO is that *you* are supposed to > > learn from the results of your own actions. You steal. > > Something happens to your state of attention as a > > result; it sinks "lower." You steal again, it happens > > again. Sooner or later you figure this out and stop > > stealing. There is no "intervention" involved with > > this, merely individual responsibility. > > I don't really see this. Seems to me it can take a good long > time for us to learn certain lessons, and usually our body > gives out before we do. I view this as a pretty practical > matter. It seems obvious to me that a lot of good actions go > unrewarded, and a lot of bad actions go unpunished in the span > of one lifetime. The only way I can make sense of this is > through this idea of reincarnation.
I think you're seeing the issue of "reward" or "punishment" in physical terms. The Tibetan school of thought (which I subscribe to) does not see karma as purely physical. Physical repercussions of one's actions may take some time, as you say. But there is an aspect of karma that is immediate. Your state of attention drops *instantly* if you perform an action that is not life-supporting, and rises *instantly* if you perform an action that is. If you are sensitive to the fluctuations of attention, you can notice these drops and rises even at the *thought* of an action, before you perform it. Those in an already-low state of attention may not notice this, but someone who is more aware of the fluctuations of attention and how to interpret them notices immediately. Over time, someone wise gravi- tates towards those actions that result in a higher state of attention. What enables them *to* do this is free will. If the karma -- the samskaras or tend- encies generated by past actions -- were the *only* factor, you'd be in a "closed loop." There would be no way to ever escape from it. Free will means that it is possible to more quickly discern these drops in attention and thus "avoid the problem before it comes." This works just as well given the one lifetime model as it does given the multiple lifetime model. > > I think people get all fucked up by associating the > > very simple, clear concept of karma with the very > > murky, unclear concept of reincarnation. I am talk- > > ing about karma in its sense as simple actions and > > the results of those action. I said, nor implied, > > anything about reincarnation in my previous posts. > > Fine, of course. But aside from all this theoretical stuff. > Do you believe in reincarantion? Yes. Based on personal experiences (memories) that indicate to me that the Tibetan model for life, death, and the rebirth cycle are accurate. I don't *know* that these memories are correct, of course, but I have enough faith in them to put more trust in the reincarnation model than in the one life model. > What's all this "surfing the bardo" all about, if I have > the correct term. I don't quite see the case you are > making about how karmic accounts get settled in the span > of one lifetime, and would like to know, as a practical > matter if you really do as well. I think some samskaras can be resolved in an instant, much less within one lifetime. The Buddhist buzzphrase is "Recognition is liberation." Perceive the onset of a samskara early and use your intent to stop it in its tracks, and in their model that samskara is *much* less likely to never arise again. I have certainly had this experience many times in my life. As for the idea of "settling accounts," I have nothing to say because I don't believe in such a concept. There is nothing out there "keeping score" in my opinion. Your "account" is your current state of attention. *It* is all that "keeps score," and all that needs to. > Fine to say, "could be this", or "could be that", but what do > you believe. I believe that the Tibetan model of death being a transition much like falling asleep and the Bardo being a state similar to dreams is accurate. I won't know for sure until I bite the big one myself, but I'm hoping I get to surf the Bardo and play the game again. If I'm wrong and the world just goes black along with any self or self-identity, big deal. I won't even be there to know about it, much less be there to be disappointed. :-)
