--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain <no_reply@...> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <vajradhatu@> wrote:
> > Having said that, practicing Dzogchen atiyoga for a sufficient amount a > > time as to gain certainty in the direct, non-conventional experience of the > > natural state is the best way I know to gain recognition of it in others, > > but even that depends on the peculiar mix of obscurations of the people > > involved. > Recognizing the natural state in others and all is natural. If you recognize > the natural state at some times, in some people, in some things, but at other > times see appearances other than the natural state, perhaps that is a > reflection of obscurations. > When you see Robin as natural state, is its nature LoveBliss? If you are in your natural state, everything is in its natural state. That is always from the POV of one's own body. While everyone is perceived to be in their natural state, those other bodies may not be noticing that from their POV. Finding out if those other bodies are experiencing their natural state from their POV is more involved, because first of all they have to describe what they are experiencing. If they say they are seeking their natural state, then obviously they are not there yet, as an experience. It is another matter if they are claiming enlightenment. tartbrain I think is right in saying that if you are in the natural state, that is the only thing you can experience, but it does not necessarily mean the body that seems to house that experience is omniscient. Suppose we have a great master. What can they tell? Is it possible to fool a master? The master-disciple relationship is almost always under certain controlled conditions, in which the master's position in the relationship is clearly delineated. Supposing you run into such a master on the street never having seen him or her before, and have no idea who that person is. You strike up a conversation. Who can tell what about what state each is in? I have no idea what the answer to this question might be. P.S. What does it mean to say (as Vaj did above) 'to gain certainty in the direct, non-conventional experience of the natural state', is this a reference to the natural state not being a typical experience for people, that it is thus uncommon? The natural state could never be non-conventional in another meaning because it is the only state of existence, and in that meaning, totally conventional. There is nothing special to do to have the natural state except getting rid of the illusions you have about what it is. A spiritual path is a special kind of illusion, one that unwinds itself in the end, and vanishes. If you are still on the path, you can guess where you are not.
