Hi all, I sent this reply yesterday, but because I'm not as competent with my email program as I am with my notation software, I sent it only to Johannes rather than to the whole list.
Just in case there's still an appetite for all of this, here's my response to Johannes' request to find out exactly where Jonathan's list is particularly outdated. Best, -Will ---- Forwarded Message ---- To: Johannes Gebauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 05 February 2004 Subject: Re: [Finale] comparing finale/sibelius Hello Johannes, > If you think this list is not accurate, can you tell > us exactly where it isn't accurate? *Sigh*. Okay, then -- here goes. Bear in mind that I'm just a user of both programs, so I may make a few mistakes in here. But by my reckoning, only 13 of Jonathan's assertions are actually true. 1. Brackets won't automatically hide when you 'optimise' a double (or more) staved part. ** Not true. Sibelius 3 does this (don't know about earlier versions). 2. System spacing is never even. ** Not true. And Sibelius has some very simple commands for resetting the spaces between staves and systems with a single click if you do get into a mess. 3. Just try to move an individual measure number.... ** Not true. Just click and drag. 4. Inability to move ties easily. ** This is a matter of opinion, of course, but I don't find any problems here. You can edit them numerically in a floating palette, or use keyboard shortcuts to move either end, adjust the curvature, or move the whole tie up/down. 5. Poor spacing of Multi Measure rests especially in the same system as single measures. ** This is a matter of opinion, too. Sibelius doesn't space multimeasure rests proportionately (i.e. a 6 bar multimeasure rest is the same width as a 2 bar multimeasure rest), but not all publishers like it that way anyway. And you can easily space them to your own preference if you like. 6. Larger files run slow (Mac G4 867mhz/256mb RAM) ** I guess you'd have to define "large" and "slow" for this to mean anything. I have an original PowerBook G4 12" (867Mhz, 640Mb RAM) and it works fine on every project I've ever used it on. Faster than Finale, in fact, particularly with regard to screen redraw. > 7. v1.4 Freezes my computer every time I open it > from a start-up. ** I can't vouch for this as I've never used Sib 1.4, but I would imagine that this is just one of those one-off problems with a particular extension conflict or something. Sib 2 and Sib 3 have been rock-solid in Mac OS X for me, notwithstanding the annoying error message that popped up every time you started Sib 2.1 in Mac OS 10.2, which is thankfully fixed in Sib 3 anyway. > 8. Impossible to recover text (in undo history) if > you've hit return from a text block edit. ** This may have been true once, but I've never noticed this. 9. Very frustrating when you need to move individual systems or staves, they all jump around and the page gradually moves higher in the screen view until you are stuck with just the lower 4cms of your score in view. ** Sib 3 has very good shortcuts for moving staves and systems around, either affecting the justification of the whole page or moving a selection independently of all other staves/systems on the page. I don't know what Jonathan's talking about here, but I find this pretty stable and fool-proof. 10. Hairpin cresc./dims. vary in opening width depending on their length. ** This is true. And you can control the aperture if you want to change it (though only globally, not on a case-by-case basis, which would be useful). 11. Slurs are not like engraver slurs in Finale, they collide and clash all over, plus they are really hard to move around over system breaks, some you can't move at all. ** Again, haven't ever seen this happen. Sibelius's slurs don't avoid objects under their arc, so they don't adjust their shape if e.g. the notes in the middle are higher than the notes at either end, but they do avoid ties and articulations at either end, and they have decent control over curvature, positioning and so on. Not as powerful as Finale, though. 12. Terrible look to rhythmic notation, for example try two consecutive un-beamed 8th notes with a tie..... ** I don't know what Jonathan means by rhythmic notation, so I can't comment on this. 13. Printing is slower (spreads and spooling scores). ** Printing is slower than Finale in OS X, that's true. 14 Clunky text selection for expressions etc. ** This is a matter of opinion. In Sibelius, you double-click an existing text object to edit it, and Control-click for a menu with lots of library items in it. You can enter these items either by clicking, typing a shortcut, or typing them directly. You can group select text and manipulate it, change fonts easily, and (of course) change font midway through a text item, which has only recently become possible in Finale, as we know! 15. Procedure for changing (hiding or deleting) measure numbers is far too complicated. ** I can see that if you need to do this a lot, the Sibelius way could be slow. They have a Bar Number Change command that you can only apply to one bar number at a time. But it works fine -- I don't think it's complicated. Matter of opinion, I suppose. 16. Page %'s for viewing are fixed and not always what you want for optimum screen size, you can't just select a size as with Finale (or make it default). ** Not true any more (though maybe it once was). I like the neat drag-zoom feature that allows you to click and drag to choose the precise area to zoom in to fill the screen. 17. Beams and Slurs look really jagged on screen. ** Not any more! In fact, Sibelius 3 uses some very fancy display anti-aliasing that not only looks great, it has also sped up the redraw speed considerably since Sibelius 2. Zoomed in close, text, slurs, beams, hairpins etc. look absolutely beautiful (to my eyes, at least!). 18. Flags don't line up with stems on screen view ** I think this depends on the zoom factor you're using (the further out you zoom, it sometimes looks wrong). But for normal working (where you can see a few bars at a time) I've never noticed this. 19. Accidentals in chord clusters are incorrect and often badly spaced. ** I remember a comparison on Tobias Giesen's site that showed how Sibelius's accidental placement was inferior to Finale's years ago (e.g. even in chords with spans of a seventh or greater accidentals doubled in different octaves didn't align) -- but these problems have long since gone away. I don't have a problem with how Sibelius places accidentals, but I'm not an expert engraver. 20. Placement of Articulations (accents, staccs, tenutos, etc.) is far too rigid, there is no scope for individual placement or movement. ** You can move them vertically and flip them either side of the note, but you can't move them horizontally. This has never been a problem for me; when I need an articulation in a non-standard place, I just use a symbol instead. 21. In part extracts of Multi Wind parts you will loose the transpositions for each instrument change. ** I don't do this kind of thing often but I've just tried it and it works fine. Perhaps this was a bug in an older version that's since been fixed? 22. Any Finale file containing grace notes imported into Sibelius will really mess up. The result will be parts that contain super small empty measures where ever there was a corresponding measure in the score containing grace notes. ** I've tried this, too, and I can't make it go wrong as Jonathan describes. Also the MM rest groups start appearing all over the pages in very strange places. The only work round is to delete each bar in each part and then insert again. This can waste hours, yet reading the Sibelius promo you would think it a cinch...think again. ** No, this is wrong. You don't have to delete and re-input the bars; there's a special command for whether or not a bar splits a multirest. There *is* a bug where this command gets set for every bar in an imported Finale file, but it's really easy to fix by simply selecting the whole score and switching off this command for all bars. 23. Try putting articulations over rhythmic notation.....Yuk! ** Again, not sure what he means by rhythmic notation. Does he mean slashes (virgules)? If so, I've never noticed a problem. 24. So you want to move an Articulation? This is what the Sibelius manual says on page 69: "In the unlikely event that you want to move an articulation, delete it and create a new one as a symbol. Be aware that articulations created as symbols have no playback effect." ** This is the same as #20 (so it's only 68 reasons! :-), and as I said, you can move 'em. 25. Score expressions (tempo markings etc.) cannot be 'nudged' and must be dragged. ** Not true. Use the arrow keys to move them just like all other text. 26. Settings for part extract need to be altered each time for single or double stave parts. ** Don't know what he means. You can choose to export either all instruments onto single staves, or selected instruments onto two staves. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what he wants to do. 27. If you change font details on a text expression all other instances of that word in the score remain unchanged, so you have to change them all individually. ** Not true. 28. Flags on voice layers are too short and collide. ** Not true. 29. The broken chord symbol in front of chord clusters is not taken into spacing consideration and consequently needs to be dragged around to stop it clashing with barlines, every time. ** This is true, but of course once you've added some extra space for it, Sib keeps that space for you, so it's not a big problem. 30. Most articulations are not taken into spacing consideration. ** Not true, unless he knows something I don't! 31. Tenutos collide with ties on notes and you can't move 'em. ** They do collide, but you can move them. 32. Awful looking ties on an up-stem to a down-stem note, the tie goes through the stem. ** This is true. Default tie placement in Sibelius is definitely a weakness. 33. Impossible to select multiple items like text or staff expressions. ** Not true. 34. Speed users will find that you are constantly grabbing the wrong items as the application is so slow to react. ** Not true, at least not on my computer. And I tend to use the keyboard rather than the mouse, anyway. 35. Time delay on editing text and moving staves. ** Not true, at least not on my Mac. 36. No spacing for chord symbols. ** This is true. 37. No on screen guide lines for aligning text or expressions. ** Not true. They have some very neat rulers that show distances between items, staves, page edges, etc. (on the page rather than at the margins like Finale). And they have commands for aligning objects, etc. 38. 1st Repeat bars come out too close to key signatures and need to be dragged to avoid collision. ** This is true, and one of the most annoying things about Sibelius (for me, anyway). But you can easily drag them to the right place, and again, once you've done that, Sibelius doesn't override you. 39. Inability to drag an expression anywhere in the area under key change signatures in double staves like a piano part. ** Not true. 40. When editing a text block you dont get WYSIWYG, the last letters are usually missing. ** Not true. 41. Inability to show measure numbers over multi measure rest groups, for example 24-28. ** This is true. You can add them yourself, of course, but this is a hassle. 42. Default note spacing 'rule' as its so pretentiously called, allows collision of the flags on a 16th note with the barline if it is the final note in the measure. ** Not true, though this was true in Sibelius 2. Spacing in general in Sibelius 3 is very good now, particularly with complex cross-rhythms. 43. Page breaks won't stay in place if you adjust the systems afterwards, for instance if you alter the number of measures in each system. ** Not true, unless I'm misunderstanding Jonathan. A page break is placed at a particular bar, and sticks to it as the score is reflowed. Seems sensible enough to me. 44. Cautionary accidentals before a change of transposing instrument in multi-wind part is extremely dodgy. ** "Extremely dodgy"? What does he mean? There's a style sheet option for whether you want cautionary naturals or not (off by default since it's a bit of an old-fashioned convention nowadays) but if you switch it on, it works fine. 45. Alternate notation is not real, it is graphical and therefore you get no playback and can copy only the symbol to another measure not the music that it 'hides' as with Finale. ** There's no direct equivalent of staff styles in Sibelius, it's true, but you can easily achieve the same effect by hiding everything in another layer (or voice, as Sibelius calls it). 46. There is no choice to fix the font size selected, so if you reduce the note size the font size goes with it. ** This is true. Only been a problem for me when I needed to attach text like tempo indications to a small staff (e.g. in a score for solo instrument and keyboard, where the solo staff is smaller and you don't duplicate the tempo marking above the keyboard staff too). You can work around it, but it is annoying. 47. Treble and Bass Clef changes in LH or RH Piano/Keyboard parts get mysteriously changed upon part extract requiring a reproof. ** Never experienced this. Just tried it quickly and couldn't make it go wrong. Perhaps this was once a bug that has since been fixed? 48. You can't move a 8va--------- extension over system breaks to the left or right. ** Not true. There's a style sheet option for whether or not line extensions should start over the key signature. 49. Inability to open a selected sequence of .sib files from the finder in the order you shift click them. They just all appear in A-Z order. This is useless when you want to print out a set of parts in a specific order. ** This is true, but I didn't even realise it was true in Finale! 50. Sibelius began life as a University project undertaken by the Finn brothers and thus it comes over as such; a rather amateurish application, even the manual has a snooty 'we know better than you do' air to it. They dont. ** This is a matter of opinion. I don't find the application amateurish, despite its faults, and though it is true that Sibelius does impose its default behavior on you, I've never really encountered a situation in which I haven't been able to make Sibelius do what I want. I think this is one of those myths that goes "In Finale, you can do whatever you want in a number of ways. In Sibelius, there's only one way to do anything, and if you don't want to do it that way, you can't do it at all." I don't think it's true. 51. Drum noteheads are poor. ** Surely this is a function of the music font you use? I don't see anything wrong with the Opus font (indeed its percussion symbols are rather better than those supplied with Finale, and I often use them in Finale myself), though the noteheads in general are a little too elliptical for my liking. 52. Rehearsal marks (A,B,C, etc.) are not easily moved. If you drag them too far away from their original position the rehearsal mark jumps up or down, so letter C becomes D or B and all the others change too. This is listed in the manual as a feature! ** It's useful in some situations, e.g. adding an extra rehearsal mark earlier in the score. But when extracting parts, if you have to nudge a rehearsal mark up to avoid a high note or whatever, it can re-attach to the staff above, sending things into disarray. I've complained about this myself. 53. Inability to group sets of measures into many systems. ** Not true. There's a plug-in to do this. 54. Inability just to simply nudge measures up or down systems. ** This is true -- you can't select a measure and use the arrow keys to move them up and down systems. But Sibelius can do this, it just doesn't use the same shortcuts as Finale, so this is, again, a matter of taste rather than something that "Finale can do, Sibelius can't". 55. Lack of spacing in secondary layers... ** I don't know what he means. Sibelius takes all layers into account when spacing. No problems with accidentals in secondary layers colliding in Sibelius! ... and no update of layout. ** Does he mean that Sibelius doesn't have an Update Layout command like Finale? It doesn't need one, because it doesn't work the same way (e.g. Sibelius has *always* had automatic redraw, and it's still faster than Finale's auto redraw in 2k4). 56. Clunky actions with most dragging movements, sometimes delayed, sometimes secondary. ** I haven't found this. Dragging seems to work okay for me, either from the mouse or the keyboard. 57. Freemidi doesnt work with Sibelius, even though it is included with the CD. ** Never used Sibelius in OS 9, so I don't know! 58. Menus are confusing, too long (submenus), and sometimes inappropriate. For example: Create Text. ** A matter of taste, I guess. Choose between having different sets of menus for different tools, like Finale, or a single set of menus that's always the same and therefore has to have more items in them. 59. Cheap manual, poorly indexed and not logical to follow. Some items have no reference at all, usually the bits that dont work properly. ** I've never seen the Sibelius 1 manual, but the Sibelius 3 manual is lovely: 600 pages, a comprehensive index with lots of cross-referencing, nicely typeset and very easy to read. No on-line PDF maunal, though; Sibelius has built-in Apple Help, though, which uses a lot of the material from the manual. 60. No auto spacing when measures are moved to other systems. ** Unless I'm misunderstanding (again), this isn't true. 61. Sibelius doesnt believe in using handles for any element which is a great idea until two or more elements overlap and then you cant select anything. ** Slurs, lines, etc. have handles, so this isn't true. However, text objects don't have handles in Sibelius. 62. Restrictive copy protection especially if you need to use it on more than one computer. ** Not true. I have Sibelius installed on my G4 PowerBook and my old G4 desktop. You can authorize it on two machines, just like you can Finale. 63. Overpriced. Upgrades also expensive and it is impossible to run 2 versions on the same computer. ** I didn't find Sibelius overpriced. I bought it online for a few hundred dollars. 64. The Sibelius web site for user problems is monitored in such a way that you only see the problems and solutions they want you to see. ** Perhaps this used to be true, but everyone can search their help database, everybody can read the forum on their web site. And I like the fact that most messages on their forum are replied to by somebody who works for the company, so you know the user feedback is at least being heard by people who matter. There's comparitively little Coda presence on the Finale forum or this list. 65. All Sibelius publications have the same look to them, there is very little scope for customisation and to change the overall style even though they have a 'house styles' option, which is merely a list of various notation preferences most of which are very restricted. ** I suppose this is a matter of opinion. Sibelius allows you to change music font, spacings, line thicknesses, beam angles, tie and slur curvature, etc., etc. just like Finale. There are a few gaps, e.g. distances between items like clefs, key signatures and time signatures have to be judged by eye rather than controlled numerically, but I think that the quality of the output depends more on the intentions and the ability of the person using the software than the software itself -- and that goes for Finale just as much as Sibelius. In fact, I still consider Finale's default templates to produce worse results than Sibelius's defaults, but I guess this is a matter of opinion too. And thankfully I have my own Finale templates that work pretty good. 66. Claims for the slick importing of Finale files are way over the top. The truth is that they bring in little more information than a standard MIDI file import would do. ** I don't think this is true. Layout, some expressions (though not smart shapes), lyrics, other text, etc. all come through fine. 67. Winged repeats are possible on the starting repeat bars but not the ending repeat bars! ** Not true. 68: It is impossible to have two brackets of the same type in different horizontal positions, as for example when a divided string section uses extra staves. Sibelius forces you to use their "subsidiary bracket" (actually a desk bracket) for this purpose even in places where it is inappropriate--and heaven help you if you need more than three layers of bracketing. I find it very strange that an application developed in England would enforce a bracket style that is standard only in France and Russia. ** This is true. Not a problem for me personally, but if you work with large ensembles and need to conform to a particular publisher's style, this is tough to do at the moment. 69. Difficulty in getting ending repeat brackets to display on multiple systems. This is a nightmare, for starters, the height of the ending bracket is not adjustable when it spans multiple systems. You have to position it exactly right when you click it in, because once it's there, it ain't moving. ** Not true. You can move these brackets up and down with the arrow keys, and adjust their height above the second system independently of their height above the first. And Sibelius plays these brackets back much more intelligently than Finale, understanding all the standard repeat structures without the need to run plug-ins or set them up by hand. Well, that's taken me about an hour to get through. Hope it helps! If I had time, I'd write a list of things I prefer in Sibelius to Finale, but not today! Best, -WR ____________________________________________________________ Find what you are looking for with the Lycos Yellow Pages http://r.lycos.com/r/yp_emailfooter/http://yellowpages.lycos.com/default.asp?SRC=lycos10 _______________________________________________ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
