I 100% second this. Without any offense this entire thread points to some of the downsides of the open source idea and initiatives. At the end of the day without *any* driving commercial model things run into problems.
I am a big fan of open source, I am a heavy user of frameworks, patterns and other stuff open source initiatives have born, however, migration does cost money. Somebody has to pay for it. I can clearly understand that this time Macromedia "does not care" about reverse engineered open source alternatives to what they offer as a product. This very early alpha release is part of a new strategy which should allow even the ones who work for free to migrate their products and make them future safe. In a professional environment we have based our solutions mostly on commercially licensed product - and have always been sure that we have a future proof path for our customers. Just my 5 words to this discussion. Regards Ralf Rottmann | Director Sales & Marketing | VoicInt Telecommunications GmbH m:+49-(0)170-914-5495 | f: +49-(0)231-557402-99 | e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Tapper Sent: Freitag, 16. Dezember 2005 23:47 To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex2 and Amfphp is it possible ? Hank - I still fail to see the meat of your argument. Macromedia has already released CFAdapter, which offers a clean, painless migration path for existing ColdFusion and JRun customers. I think its safe to assume they will have a similar adapter released which covers other .Net and Java servers. So who is abandoned? AMFPHP? I fail to see it as Macromedia's responsibilty to support them. AMF was and still is a proprietary protocol. If the open source community wants to reverse engineer and create an opensource AMF3PHP, more power to them, but I dont see that at MM's job. In my opionion, the Flash Platform has suffered over the past decade because of their "backward compatability at all costs" mantra. I've got no issue with sunsetting old apis, so long as there is a clean and clear migration path. With AMF3, Flex 2 and AS3, the migration path is pretty obvious to me as a ColdFusion, JRun, Flex and Flash customer. At 05:30 PM 12/16/2005, you wrote: >Jesse, > >I am not sure why you are making me restate what is fairly clear from >the emails from both brian and myself. In fact I would say brian is >more articulate about it than me. But since you ask: > >On 12/16/05, JesterXL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I would say Flex 2's goal is to improve on the AMF protocol by making it > > better, not to orphan existing servers. > >I dont think orphaning servers is anyones primary goal, just a side >effect that perhaps some feel would be financially beneficial. > >I posted code showing that AMF0 > > works in AS3, which should negate your concern. > > > >Nope. Again I dont want to redo this entire thread, but just doing >AMF0 at the lowest level doesnt get you, for example recordsets. To >expect people to deal with stuff at this level is just not right. > > > Mike Chambers, Mike Downey, David Mendals, Matt Chotin, and Phillip Costa > > have all responded to your threads on OSFlash, Flashcoders, Flashcom, and > > Flexcoders over the past months attempting to address your concerns. Yet > > you still keep asking the same question. If they say the made up quote > > above, would this make you happy? > > >I would disagree that anyone has attempted to address my concern. They >have responded to my statements. But what I have heard in response is >*very* troubling. Actually, before today the only one that responded >to me was Mike Chambers, and he basically said (and I am paraphrasing) >that it was only going to be supported at the low level. Just like >what you said which means rewriting major, already working >functionality. > >Addressing my concerns would be stating clear policy on the issue that >is different from what I keep hearing. If they said what you just >suggested they say, it would solve my problem, but, but they wont say >it. You get answers like, "its just alpha" or "we cant support >everything in AS3". Obviously a concise answer that answered the issue >with "we are going to solve this issue so everyone will be able to do >remoting with their existing servers" the problem would go away. > >This is not a complicated issue. Deprecating APIs that dont need to be >deprecated when tens of thousands of developers rely on them without >any kind or orderly phase out is just not good policy. Perhaps you >dont mind, but if Flex is released without addressing this people are >going to be pissed. If they are going to fix it it would be great if >they would just say so. > >Regards >Hank > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "hank williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <flexcoders@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 4:58 PM > > Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex2 and Amfphp is it possible ? > > > > > > Jesse, > > > > Perhaps you missed the beginning of the thread, but the facts that you > > state are pretty much what this thread is complaining about. > > > > I am not concerned about what the alpha looks like but what Adobe's > > plan and policy is relationg to this matter. The issue is that it > > appear to me that it is the intent of the flex2 design to orphan the > > zillions of servers out there speaking AMF0. > > > > I am conerned about the fact that there is no consistent logical and > > clear statement that AMF0 and old style remoting will be supported in > > AS3. To me it appears that they do not intend to. In my view instant > > protocol and API deprecation is very bad form. Its just not what a > > mature company would do. I will not repeat everything that I and Brian > > Lesser have been saying here, but just to get up to speed you should > > probably check the archives for this thread if you have missed it. > > > > Regards > > Hank > > > > On 12/16/05, JesterXL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > 1. The existing Flash MX 2004 & Flash 8 Remoting classes do not > compile in > > > Flex 2. Since Flex 2 is not done yet, not sure if Macromedia will > include > > > those classes or not. If not, we'll have to code them. > > > > > > So, for now, if you are not using the Flex 2 framework, then you most > > > likely > > > will have to re-write low-level code. Here's what Renaun Erikson posted > > > to > > > AMFPHP list: > > > > > > var gatewayUrl : String = > "<http://localhost/amfphp/gateway.php>http://localhost/amfphp/gateway.ph p"; > > > gateway_conn = new NetConnection(); > > > gateway_conn.objectEncoding = flash.net.ObjectEncoding.AMF0; > > > gateway_conn.connect( gatewayUrl ); > > > gateway_conn.call( "com.multispan.micro.Person.getPersons", new > > > flash.net.Responder( onQueryResult, onQueryStatus ) ); > > > > > > > > > 2. I'm not sure the status of completion the RemoteObject tag is in Flex > > > 2' > > > framework, but if they expose to the format property to set our AMF > > > version > > > to AMF0, then this will work; assuming they do, you'll be able to connect > > > MXML's RemoteObject in Flex 2 to older Remoting servers. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "hank williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <flexcoders@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 3:59 PM > > > Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex2 and Amfphp is it possible ? > > > > > > > > > Ok, so I was right. > > > > > > All jesse is saying is 8.5 wont break the millions of apps that are > > > out there right now. > > > > > > Just an inch shy of meaningless. (no offense jesse). > > > > > > What I am talking about is being able to have 8.5 AVM2 based apps talk > > > to AMF0 and all the existing server installations that are out there > > > right now. > > > > > > I want to be able to do 2 things. > > > > > > 1. Port my existing flash code to 8.5 without needing to rewrite major > > > pieces of low level client side remoting code that was previously part > > > of the flash baseline. > > > > > > 2. I want to be able to speak MXML to my existing AMF0 based server > > > code the same way the rest of the kids on the block do it - with a > > > RemoteObject. I dont want to use some ghetto APIs or tags that are > > > not as clean as everyone elses. Using MXML with my existing server > > > infrastructure should not be hard, even if it is not as fast as the > > > new AMF3 stuff is. > > > > > > Regards > > > Hank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/16/05, JesterXL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Er, Flash 9 Blaze... you knew what I meant. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "JesterXL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: <flexcoders@yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 3:35 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex2 and Amfphp is it possible ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Just to confirm, this link has as Flash Player 7 movie created in Flash > > > > MX > > > > 2004 using Remoting, and a Flex 1.5 Flash Player 7 movie using > > > > RemoteObject, > > > > both use AMFPHP. This link works in my Firefox 1.5 using the alpha > > > > Flash > > > > Player 8.5: > > > > > > > > > <http://www.jessewarden.com/archives/2005/06/flash_flex_amfp.html>http:/ /www.jessewarden.com/archives/2005/06/flash_flex_amfp.html > > > > > > > > I did nothing to those Flash movies to get them to work in Flash Player > > > > 8.5; > > > > they just do. > > > > > > > > Neither take advantage of AVM3. To do that, 3 things need to happen: > > > > - I need to port the Flex 1.5 app to Flex 2 > > > > - I need to port the Flash MX 2004 app to Flash 8 (Blaze, not out yet) > > > > - both need AMFPHP needs to support AMF3, which AMFPHP doesn't yet > > > > > > > > Therefore, when released, Flash Player 8.5 will play all the > millions of > > > > existing websites the same as they do now. However, none of them will > > > > take > > > > advantage of the following without re-coding: > > > > - AS3's speed > > > > - Flash Player 8.5's new features > > > > - AMF3 > > > > > > > > So, for all content created in Flash 8/Flex 1.5, Flash Player 8.5 will > > > > detect this, and use the old AVM and the old AMF. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Matt Chotin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: <flexcoders@yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 3:25 PM > > > > Subject: RE: [flexcoders] Re: Flex2 and Amfphp is it possible ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Jesse is correct and you're mis-interpreting Phil. The new AVM can > > > > communicate using AMF0 if you set that flag on NetConnection. You can > > > > then use NetConnection directly against the older server. Additionally > > > > AMF3 is not available in the older AVM, it's only available in the new > > > > AVM and the code that we are writing for Flex does take advantage of it > > > > (since it runs in the new AVM). > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > > > > Behalf Of hank williams > > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 12:21 PM > > > > To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex2 and Amfphp is it possible ? > > > > > > > > Jesse, > > > > > > > > What your are saying sounds great. But it sounds different than what > > > > philip is saying. > > > > > > > > It sounds like you are saying that my current code will work in 8.5 > > > > with the new AVM2 but I will have to use the AMF0 flag which means it > > > > will be less efficient. > > > > > > > > It sounds like what philip is saying is that in 8.5 you will have to > > > > use the old AVM that is embedded in 8.5 to use AMF0 and the old > > > > remoting. This is not great because it is impossible to run AVM and > > > > AVM2 code in the same SWF. So if my interpretation of what Philip is > > > > saying is correct, then this has no "migration value". It is merely > > > > saying the new player wont just break the millions of existing sites > > > > out there which you dont really get a gold star for. > > > > > > > > So, Which one of these two scenarios is correct. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Hank. > > > > > > > > On 12/16/05, JesterXL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Flash will be backwards compatible, like always. However, you'll > > > > either > > > > > have to use AMF0 for the defaultObjectEncoding property of > > > > > flash.net.NetConnection to allow it to work with old content. The > > > > optimized > > > > > changes to AMF packets + serialization/deserialization means that > > > > projects > > > > > like OpenAMF & AMFPHP will have to be modified to take advantage of > > > > them; > > > > > aka, read the new AMF format. > > > > > > > > > > I don't know how different the format is, but it wouldn't jump from > > > > AMF0 to > > > > > AMF3 if it didn't rock. Therefore, old content will still work as > > > > usually, > > > > > and you can still use Remoting with AMFPHP & OpenAMF. I've already > > > > tested > > > > > my existing content in Flash Player 8.5 and it works. > > > > > > > > > > What I've yet to see work yet is AMFPHP using AMF3, but I wouldn't > > > > expect > > > > > Patrick & the AMFPHP crew to start working on it until the player is > > > > in > > > > > later betas. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: "hank williams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: <flexcoders@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 11:30 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex2 and Amfphp is it possible ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Philip, > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for taking the time to respond to this issue. I do > > > > appreciate it. > > > > > > > > > > But I do have a bit of a concern with what you are saying. It sounds > > > > > like you are saying that because of improvments in architecture or > > > > > performance, old style AMF remoting may not be possible, or may > not be > > > > > possible easily. > > > > > > > > > > This just doesnt sound right. > > > > > > > > > > These are pretty high level Async protocols, and I cannot imagine any > > > > > speed or architectural change that would cause such things to be > > > > > unsuportable. Moreover the documentation and others from macromedia > > > > > have said that the low level protocol is supported just not the > higher > > > > > layers. > > > > > > > > > > So, I appreciate your responding, but it would really be helpful to > > > > > understand the technical issues that cause you or others to say that > > > > > because of the AVM changes that this stuff may not be supportable. > > > > > Because, to me, it sounds like saying "due to speed and architecture > > > > > changes flash can no longer support the color RED". > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > Hank > > > > > > > > > > On 12/16/05, Philip Costa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry I'm jumping in late on this thread, but I was out of the > > > > office > > > > > > and I've been having email problems. > > > > > > > > > > > > To follow up on Matt's comment, you have to recognize that with > this > > > > > > public alpha, we are releasing into the wild much earlier than > > > > usual, so > > > > > > not everything is resolved. We recognize that AS3/Flex 2 is a big > > > > change > > > > > > and that moving to it will require some people to rewrite > > > > code/change > > > > > > infrastructure. Part of the reason for releasing early is to make > > > > sure > > > > > > we struck the right balance between improving the architecture > > > > (which > > > > > > often causes breakage) and breaking things (which causes pain). The > > > > > > discussion here is definitely helpful in this regard. > > > > > > > > > > > > With Flex 2/AS3, we did not set out to break compatibility with > > > > existing > > > > > > Remoting implementations, but that may be a reality of the big > > > > changes > > > > > > we are making. As with every change, you have to make trade-offs > > > > between > > > > > > keeping backward compatibility and fixing things for the > future. Our > > > > > > goal is to build a solid technical foundation that we can use > in our > > > > own > > > > > > products and that others can use in their products; with this > > > > release, > > > > > > we decided making some painful changes was the right choice for the > > > > > > long-term. > > > > > > > > > > > > To address the specific question about Remoting, we will have more > > > > > > information about the future of other Adobe/Macromedia products > that > > > > use > > > > > > Remoting soon as well as information about how other products that > > > > rely > > > > > > on AMF can make the migration to AS3. But I do want to set the > > > > > > expectation that this is going to be a migration, not an upgrade. > > > > Player > > > > > > 8.5 will continue to run content/applications published to Player 8 > > > > and > > > > > > below, but to take advantage of the radical performance and > > > > functional > > > > > > improvements in the new AVM, some things will have to be > > > > reimplemented. > > > > > > We are absolutely committed to helping the developer community make > > > > that > > > > > > change, whether they are buying Flex, Remoting or CF from us or > > > > > > something like AMFPHP, but at the moment we're in the middle of > > > > making > > > > > > that change ourselves, so you will have to be patient. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope that helps, > > > > > > > > > > > > Phil Costa > > > > > > Group Product Manager, Flex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > On > > > > > > Behalf Of hank williams > > > > > > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 7:25 AM > > > > > > To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex2 and Amfphp is it possible ? > > > > > > > > > > > > To add just a little color to this, I use java on the server side, > > > > but > > > > > > POJOs are useless to me because I return almost all my data as > > > > > > ResutSet/RecordSet's. There are a variety of reasons for this > > > > including > > > > > > the pageablerecordset capability, but the bottom line is that's how > > > > I do > > > > > > it. Rewriting the old recordset code that supports AMF1, to me, is > > > > not > > > > > > at all sensitive to the needs of the developer base. And again, we > > > > > > don't even know if its possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt from Adobe just said that he does not expect to be breaking > > > > > > anyone's workflows, but I am not sure if that just meant Brian, who > > > > is > > > > > > using Cold Fusion, but not FlapFlap since he is using AMFPHP. Given > > > > that > > > > > > PHP is currently the most popular server side tool in the world > some > > > > > > statement of support for AMF1 would be helpful. > > > > > > > > > > > > But there are others that think that since AMFPHP is an open source > > > > > > "hack" and that Adobe has no obligation to maintain API > > > > compatibility or > > > > > > continuity with any existing protocol. Instant deprecation is no > > > > > > problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > If this is Adobe's position on this issue and to open source in > > > > general > > > > > > - or not, I would love to hear it directly from Adobe in clear, no > > > > > > nonsense terms. > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, if any Adobe management is listening, and if > appropriate, > > > > > > just detach the below letter, sign and return. I will forward > to the > > > > > > appropriate constituencies. > > > > > > > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > ----------------- > > > > > > December 16, 2006 > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Adobe > > > > > > To: Open Source Community > > > > > > Non Cold Fusion/FDS users > > > > > > PHP Users > > > > > > > > > > > > RE: The needless breaking of your existing server communication > > > > > > solution > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Screw You. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Warmest Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________ > > > > > > Signed Adobe Management Team > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > ------------ > > > > > > <snip> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/15/05, Brian Lesser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Dave, > > > > > > > This thread started with a query regarding using the open source > > > > AMF > > > > > > > PHP software that a number of people have been using for some > time > > > > to > > > > > > > build Flash/AMF/PHP based applications. Developers in that space > > > > > > > naturally want to continue to use the server-side code base (in > > > > PHP) > > > > > > > they have been building out along with the new standalone Flex 2 > > > > IDE > > > > > > and AS3. > > > > > > > However, it appears from the Alpha, and from what I gather Mike > > > > has > > > > > > > been saying, that this will not be possible without reinventing a > > > > > > > number of > > > > > > > AS3 classes such as RecordSet from scratch. Perhaps worse, though > > > > I am > > > > > > > > > > > > > not into PHP, is that it may not be possible at all if any code > > > > relied > > > > > > > > > > > > > on the NetConnection.addHeader() method. This useful, public, and > > > > > > > documented method of the NetConnection class has not been > > > > implemented > > > > > > > and is still under discussion within Adobe. So, unless I'm > missing > > > > > > > something in what you wrote, I don't think it is reasonable to > > > > suggest > > > > > > > > > > > > > PHP developers simply switch to using Web services and Java > POJOs. > > > > > > > I always understood that something like AS3 would to some degree > > > > have > > > > > > > to break AS2 and AS1 code and that at some point a new document > > > > object > > > > > > > > > > > > > model might break many APIs. But I do not believe Adobe has to > > > > > > > completely break everyone's Flash Remoting applications from end > > > > to > > > > > > end. > > > > > > > I sincerely hope that NetConnection.addHeader reappears in the > > > > beta. I > > > > > > > > > > > > > also hope that if Adobe doesn't do it, someone else will come up > > > > with > > > > > > > a solid AS3 RecordSet implementation that works flawlessly. I > > > > wish I > > > > > > > knew for certain if that was even possible. > > > > > > > I also think this discussion should give everyone pause. Imagine > > > > it is > > > > > > > > > > > > > 20 months from now. Perhaps, like the ill fated Flash Remoting > > > > Gateway > > > > > > > > > > > > > Servlet MM tried to sell at $999/CPU, the essential parts of Flex > > > > Data > > > > > > > > > > > > > Services will be reverse engineered and available as open source > > > > for a > > > > > > > > > > > > > number of different server-side technologies. Will Adobe once > > > > again > > > > > > > rewrite everything to make it better and in the process break all > > > > its > > > > > > > public APIs? Will every Java developer be left wondering if Adobe > > > > is > > > > > > > just trying to remonetize AMF or if they just don't have the > > > > > > > financial/developer resources to retire an API gracefully? > > > > > > > In any case, some caution about breaking third party developer's > > > > > > > applications from end to end seems appropriate. > > > > > > > Yours truly, > > > > > > > -Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dave Wolf wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I don't understand why you can't simply use <mx:WebService/> to > > > > > > > >replace <mx:RemoteObject> in most cases. Using AXIS you can use > > > > the > > > > > > > >exact same POJO you might have used in a <mx:RemoteObject/> and > > > > do so > > > > > > > > > > > > > >without the need for any gateway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >- > > > > > > > >Dave Wolf > > > > > > > >Cynergy Systems, Inc. > > > > > > > >Macromedia Flex Alliance Partner > > > > > > > ><http://www.cynergysystems.com>http://www.cynergysystems.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > >Office: 866-CYNERGY > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, hank williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>As far as I know there is not yet. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>There was some discussion about this on the flashcoders list > > > > when > > > > > > > >>flex2 came out. I made a pretty big deal about the fact > that the > > > > > > > >>docs seem to indicate that standard remoting will not be > > > > something > > > > > > > >>that is supported. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>Mike Chambers (a MM employee) indicated that it was supported. > > > > But > > > > > > > >>what he meant was that it was supported at a super low > level and > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>would essentially have to write all the low level remoting code > > > > for > > > > > > > >>this. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>It seemed pretty clear to me that their intent was to, ahem, > > > > > > > >>**encourage** remoting users to buy cold fusion or Flex Data > > > > > > > >>Services, in order to do painless remoting, and that they were > > > > > > > >>essentially orphaning anyone who was not doing remoting > with one > > > > of > > > > > > > >>their pricey gateways. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>Now, perhaps this post will bring adobe employees out of the > > > > > > > >>woodwork crying foul and saying I am wrong. But the fact that > > > > there > > > > > > > >>is any ambiguity about this isssue, is, in and of itself, a > real > > > > > > problem. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>The fact that that there is not some strong statement of > > > > continued > > > > > > > >>**full** support for traditional remoting is, to me, shameful. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>Regards > > > > > > > >>Hank > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>On 12/15/05, Flapflap <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>>Hi there, > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>>Because RemoteObject isn't available on Alpha is there a > way to > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >use flex > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>2 with amf php ? > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>>Thanks... > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>>By the way : Hello World ! > > > > > > > >>> I'm new to this list. > > > > > > > >>>-- > > > > > > > >>>Flapflap > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>>-- > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > Brian Lesser > > > > > > > Assistant Director, Teaching and Technology Support Computing and > > > > > > > Communications Services Ryerson University 350 Victoria St. > > > > > > > Toronto, Ontario Phone: (416) 979-5000 ext. > 6835 > > > > > > > M5B 2K3 Fax: (416) 979-5220 > > > > > > > Office: AB48D E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > (Enter through LB66) Web: > > > > <http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser>http://www.ryerson.ca/~blesser > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Flexcoders Mailing List > > > > > > > FAQ: > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt>http:/ /groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > > > > > > > Search Archives: > > > > > > > > <http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com>http://www.mai l-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Flexcoders Mailing List > > > > > > FAQ: > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt>http:/ /groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > > > > > > Search Archives: > > > > > > > <http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com>http://www.mai l-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Flexcoders Mailing List > > > > > > FAQ: > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt>http:/ /groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > > > > > > Search Archives: > > > > > <http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com>http://www.mai l-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Flexcoders Mailing List > > > > > FAQ: > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt>http:/ /groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > > > > > Search Archives: > > > > > <http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com>http://www.mai l-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Flexcoders Mailing List > > > > > FAQ: > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt>http:/ /groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > > > > > Search Archives: > > > > > <http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com>http://www.mai l-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Flexcoders Mailing List > > > > FAQ: > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt>http:/ /groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/files/flexcodersFAQ.txt > > > > Search Archives: > > > > > <http://www.mail-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com>http://www.mai l-archive.com/flexcoders%40yahoogroups.com > > > > Yahoo! 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