Didn't this debate happen with windowing systems (eg X vs NeWS, dumb vs smart windows-server).
David On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 7:30 AM, Alan Kay <alan.n...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Hi Cornelius > > There are lots of egregiously wrong things in the web design. Perhaps one > of the simplest is that the browser folks have lacked the perspective to see > that the browser is not like an application, but like an OS. i.e. what it > really needs to do is to take in and run foreign code (including low level > code) safely and coordinate outputs to the screen (Google is just starting > to realize this with NaCl after much prodding and beating.) > > I think everyone can see the implications of these two perspectives and > what they enable or block > > Cheers, > > Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Cornelius Toole <cornelius.to...@gmail.com> > *To:* Fundamentals of New Computing <fonc@vpri.org> > *Sent:* Tue, May 31, 2011 7:16:20 AM > *Subject:* Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models? > > Thanks Merik, > > I've read/watch the OOPSLA'97 keynote before, but hadn't seen the first > video. > I'm having problems with the first one(the talk at UIUC). Has anyone been > able to watch past the first hour. I get up to the point where Alex speaks > and it freezes. > > I've just recently read Roy Fielding's dissertation on the architecture of > the Web. Two prominent features of web architecture are the (1) > client-server hierarchical style and (2) the layering abstraction style. My > take away from that is how all of abstraction layers of the web software > stack get in the way of the applications that want to use the machine. Style > 1 is counter to the notion of the 'no centers' principle and is very > limiting when you consider different classes of applications that might > involve many entities with ill-defined relationships. Style 2, provides for > separation of concerns and supports integration with legacy systems, but > incurs so much overhead in terms of structural complexity and performance. I > think the stuff about web sockets and what was discussed in the Erlang > interview that Micheal linked to in the 1st reply is relevant here. The web > was designed for large grain interaction between entities, but many > application domain problems don't map to that. Some people just want pipes > or channels to exchange messages for fine-grained interactions, but the > layer cake doesn't allow it. This is where you get the feeling that the > architecture for rich web apps is no-architecture, just piling big stones > atop one another. > > I think it would be very interesting for someone to take the same approach > to networked-based application as Gezira did with graphics (or the STEP > project in general) as far assessing what's needed in a modern > Internet-scale hypermedia architecture. > > > > On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Merik Voswinkel <a...@knoware.nl> wrote: > >> Dr Alan Kay addressed the html design a number of times in his lectures >> and keynotes. Here are two: >> >> [1] Alan Kay, How Complex is "Personal Computing"?". Normal" Considered >> Harmful. October 22, 2009, Computer Science department at UIUC. >> http://media.cs.uiuc.edu/seminars/StateFarm-Kay-2009-10-22b.asx >> (also see http://www.smalltalk.org.br/movies/ ) >> >> [2] Alan Kay, "The Computer Revolution Hasn't Happened Yet", October 7, >> 1997, OOPSLA'97 Keynote. >> Transcript >> http://blog.moryton.net/2007/12/computer-revolution-hasnt-happened-yet.html >> >> Video >> http://ftp.squeak.org/Media/AlanKay/Alan%20Kay%20at%20OOPSLA%201997%20-%20The%20computer%20revolution%20hasnt%20happened%20yet.avi >> >> (also see http://www.smalltalk.org.br/movies/ ) >> >> Merik >> >> On May 26, 2011, at 8:38 PM, Cornelius Toole wrote: >> >> All, >> A criticism by Dr. Kay, has really stuck with me. I can't remember the >> specific criticism and where it's from, but I recall it being about the how >> wrong the web programming model is. I imagine he was referring to how >> disjointed, resource inefficient it is and how it only exposes a fraction of >> the power and capability inherent in the average personal computer. >> >> So Alan, anyone else, >> what's wrong with the web programming mode and application architecture? >> What programming model would work for a global-scale hypermedia system? What >> prior research or commercial systems have any of these properties? >> >> The web is about the closest we've seen to a ubiquitous deployment >> platform for software, but the confluence of market forces and technical >> realities endanger that ubiquity because users want full power of their >> devices plus the availability of Internet connectivity. >> >> -Cornelius >> >> -- >> cornelius toole, jr. | ctoo...@tigers.lsu.edu | mobile: 601.212.3045 >> _______________________________________________ >> fonc mailing list >> fonc@vpri.org >> http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> fonc mailing list >> fonc@vpri.org >> http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc >> >> > > > -- > cornelius toole, jr. | ctoo...@tigers.lsu.edu | mobile: 601.212.3045 > > _______________________________________________ > fonc mailing list > fonc@vpri.org > http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc > >
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