On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Alan Kay <alan.n...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sure, and much earlier too ... perhaps goes all the way back to Licklider's > 1963 memo about "The Intergalactic Network", where he not only meant "big", > but "(inter) communicating with aliens" (in this case alien code). > We've reserved a release name for this in Sugar: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Taxonomy#Galactose:_a_future_Sugar_base_designed_for_alternate_computing_forms :) --Fred Once you have a network of heterogeneous machines, one POV leads to the idea > of using them as caches for computations made from protected processes that > are loosely coupled via some form of messaging. The software in each machine > handles just a few things having to do with resource allocation/sharing and > network connections, etc. Everything else is done by the "floating > processes". > > X is less of a good example than perhaps Gerry Popek's LOCUS system in the > early 80s, which was a kind of distributed networked heterogeneous Unix with > floating processes which could dynamically migrate while computing. There is > a good book by Popek from MIT Press ... > > Basic idea here is to allow both vanilla programmers and trailblazers to be > able to do what they do best on the same system. > > Cheers, > > Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Harris <dphar...@telus.net> > > *To:* Fundamentals of New Computing <fonc@vpri.org> > *Sent:* Tue, May 31, 2011 8:47:39 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models? > > Didn't this debate happen with windowing systems (eg X vs NeWS, dumb vs > smart windows-server). > > David > > > > On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 7:30 AM, Alan Kay <alan.n...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Hi Cornelius >> >> There are lots of egregiously wrong things in the web design. Perhaps one >> of the simplest is that the browser folks have lacked the perspective to see >> that the browser is not like an application, but like an OS. i.e. what it >> really needs to do is to take in and run foreign code (including low level >> code) safely and coordinate outputs to the screen (Google is just starting >> to realize this with NaCl after much prodding and beating.) >> >> I think everyone can see the implications of these two perspectives and >> what they enable or block >> >> Cheers, >> >> Alan >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Cornelius Toole <cornelius.to...@gmail.com> >> *To:* Fundamentals of New Computing <fonc@vpri.org> >> *Sent:* Tue, May 31, 2011 7:16:20 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [fonc] Alternative Web programming models? >> >> Thanks Merik, >> >> I've read/watch the OOPSLA'97 keynote before, but hadn't seen the first >> video. >> I'm having problems with the first one(the talk at UIUC). Has anyone been >> able to watch past the first hour. I get up to the point where Alex speaks >> and it freezes. >> >> I've just recently read Roy Fielding's dissertation on the architecture of >> the Web. Two prominent features of web architecture are the (1) >> client-server hierarchical style and (2) the layering abstraction style. My >> take away from that is how all of abstraction layers of the web software >> stack get in the way of the applications that want to use the machine. Style >> 1 is counter to the notion of the 'no centers' principle and is very >> limiting when you consider different classes of applications that might >> involve many entities with ill-defined relationships. Style 2, provides for >> separation of concerns and supports integration with legacy systems, but >> incurs so much overhead in terms of structural complexity and performance. I >> think the stuff about web sockets and what was discussed in the Erlang >> interview that Micheal linked to in the 1st reply is relevant here. The web >> was designed for large grain interaction between entities, but many >> application domain problems don't map to that. Some people just want pipes >> or channels to exchange messages for fine-grained interactions, but the >> layer cake doesn't allow it. This is where you get the feeling that the >> architecture for rich web apps is no-architecture, just piling big stones >> atop one another. >> >> I think it would be very interesting for someone to take the same approach >> to networked-based application as Gezira did with graphics (or the STEP >> project in general) as far assessing what's needed in a modern >> Internet-scale hypermedia architecture. >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Merik Voswinkel <a...@knoware.nl> wrote: >> >>> Dr Alan Kay addressed the html design a number of times in his lectures >>> and keynotes. Here are two: >>> >>> [1] Alan Kay, How Complex is "Personal Computing"?". Normal" Considered >>> Harmful. October 22, 2009, Computer Science department at UIUC. >>> http://media.cs.uiuc.edu/seminars/StateFarm-Kay-2009-10-22b.asx >>> (also see http://www.smalltalk.org.br/movies/ ) >>> >>> [2] Alan Kay, "The Computer Revolution Hasn't Happened Yet", October 7, >>> 1997, OOPSLA'97 Keynote. >>> Transcript >>> http://blog.moryton.net/2007/12/computer-revolution-hasnt-happened-yet.html >>> >>> Video >>> http://ftp.squeak.org/Media/AlanKay/Alan%20Kay%20at%20OOPSLA%201997%20-%20The%20computer%20revolution%20hasnt%20happened%20yet.avi >>> >>> (also see http://www.smalltalk.org.br/movies/ ) >>> >>> Merik >>> >>> On May 26, 2011, at 8:38 PM, Cornelius Toole wrote: >>> >>> All, >>> A criticism by Dr. Kay, has really stuck with me. I can't remember the >>> specific criticism and where it's from, but I recall it being about the how >>> wrong the web programming model is. I imagine he was referring to how >>> disjointed, resource inefficient it is and how it only exposes a fraction of >>> the power and capability inherent in the average personal computer. >>> >>> So Alan, anyone else, >>> what's wrong with the web programming mode and application architecture? >>> What programming model would work for a global-scale hypermedia system? What >>> prior research or commercial systems have any of these properties? >>> >>> The web is about the closest we've seen to a ubiquitous deployment >>> platform for software, but the confluence of market forces and technical >>> realities endanger that ubiquity because users want full power of their >>> devices plus the availability of Internet connectivity. >>> >>> -Cornelius >>> >>> -- >>> cornelius toole, jr. | ctoo...@tigers.lsu.edu | mobile: 601.212.3045 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> fonc mailing list >>> fonc@vpri.org >>> http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> fonc mailing list >>> fonc@vpri.org >>> http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> cornelius toole, jr. | ctoo...@tigers.lsu.edu | mobile: 601.212.3045 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> fonc mailing list >> fonc@vpri.org >> http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > fonc mailing list > fonc@vpri.org > http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc > >
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