Re: [FRIAM] vol 95, issue 97

[Russell Gonnering]

With all due respect, tell that to the thousands of innocent Israeli civilians who have been butchered over the last 60 years for the crime of existing.  The intentional targeting of civilians as a matter of policy  is reprehensible, and attempting to excuse it with moral equivalence arguments  is one of the reasons it continues.  I frankly do not understand why it is so difficult  to just condemn barbaric actions without somehow excusing them, while protesting that one is of course not "really" excusing them. Bin Laden's desire to incinerate almost 3000 Americans on 9/11 was our fault only in so far as we stood by the right of Israel to exist. At Camp David in 2000 and again in January 2001, Ehud Barak  offered virtually all of the land requested for a two-state solution.  It was rejected by Arafat.  This is not about achieving a just solution in the Mideast.  It is about destroying Jews and Israel. I keep hearing that we went to "war" (or is it now "kinetic military action'?) for oil.  Yet we get none of the oil from Iraq, none of the oil from Libya. Just what, factually speaking, is our long history of our extremely warlike and predatory actions?  In the last 70 years: What countries have we annexed?  What natural resources have we appropriated as our own?  What factories from Japan and Germany did we loot and bring to the US?  Oh, wait, we rebuilt those countries following WWII.   What countries did we bring to their knees by withholding food?  North Korea?  No, we send them food. I joined this forum hoping it would be a platform to discuss complexity, a subject that has profound implications in the area of my expertise, the formulation of healthcare policy and delivery of healthcare.  Instead, I find it a spot that is filled with anything but complexity.  Please take me off the list.  It has no utility for me.  The inside jokes and self-congratulatory messages and the politics is frankly quite a bore.  Nothing complex here!   Enjoy yourselves. Russ Gonnering   Russell Gonnering, MD, MMM, FACS, CPHQ rsgonneri...@mac.com www.emergenthealth.net On May 6, 2011, at 1:16 PM, peggy miller wrote: In response to Mohammed Beltagy's few lines of poetry related to Osama Bin Laden's death: Thank you for submitting those. Though this situation is/was one fraught with fear, anger, retaliation, and, as you mention, hatred, we as a country responded in such a way that had me choking a bit on the size of the response and lack of control of the response, and also our unwillingness, our continued unwillingness to face some of the responsibility for the anger and hatred that engendered the original 9/11 attack. And though I do not believe that terrorist attacks of that nature are necessarily the result of any nation's specific actions -- and are more often an irrational result of an acumulation of anger, hatred for a sumtotal of causes and events over a long history, still, it is always wise to take a look at one's own actions to see how they might have elicited any tiny part of an action. We have become a country that seems to use war, rather than alternative actions, as a way to convince ourselves we are addressing our problems. I find our own international actions have become extremely warlike and predatorial in nature, rather than thoughtful, scientific responses to overwhelming environmental and resource problems. And though I do not condone or support in any way a terrorist action, I think we need to face that we too are looked on, often, as predatorial, warring peoples by some other countries, and this does not help our international presence, or our own national pocketbooks/budget, or even help us move toward good answers to international problems. so thanks. Peggy Miller -- Peggy Miller, owner/OEO Highland Winds wix.com/peggymiller/highlandwinds Shop is at 1520 S. 7th St. W. (Just west of Russell) Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings 406-541-7577 (home/office/shop) Shop Hours: Wed-Thurs 3-7 pm                    Fri-Sat: 8:30-12:30 am ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org