Doug -
You may be correct that the tools are insufficient and/or distancing
through abstraction... and yes it may be a side show. But as you point
out, a side show that has not even been mounted.
/Those issues, of course, being the irrational, hateful, harmful
effects of mass adherence to narrow, fundamental religious dogma,
plus whatever the deep underlying psychological urges are that
constantly seem to draw whole populations into those belief systems.
/
I don't disagree that these are the *symptoms* we experience/observe.
But I'm still more than a little curious about the *causes*. You might
posit (I think you did! ) that the *cause* of various irrational,
hateful, harmful effects are "mass adherence to narrow, fundamental,
religious dogma" and I can't really argue with you on that. But where
the hell does *that* come from? Is it necessary?
My suggestion of a model (at the risk of distancing through abstraction)
is to seek a more "systematic" answer... *What* are those underlying
psychological urges you speak of? Are there alternative systems of
thinking and organization that might yield more desirable global
behaviours?
What *fundamental* aspects of our systems of belief (religious,
political, economic, social, etc.) are *guaranteed* to lead us there
over and over. Call it Islam, call it Mormonism, call it Logical
Positivism, but why does it so often lead us back to the same
self-rightous, intolerant places? Were not most if not all religions
founded or evolved or shaped around trying to fix the existing flaws in
the systems previously in place?
/You don't need an ABM to illustrate that; you need a few good
history books./
You may read different history books than I do. The history books I
read illustrate *that* whole populations are drawn into dysfunctional
behaviours supported by their belief systems (though depending on who
wrote them, it is always a one-sided story, glorifying one set of
dysfunction in contrast to another demonized set.
I suggested *illumination* not *illustration*. I can look around,
from your (existing only in photoshop I suspect) racist bumpersticker or
just about every conversation I hear to have what we are talking about
*illustrated*... but what I want to know is *what is it all about?*, is
there anything to be done! CAN we get enough distance through
abstraction to discover actionable or effectual changes in local
strategy to effect global change?
Or do we just fall (dive headlong?) into a bubbling mass of xenophobic
blame and/or self-righteous cynicism? I personally prefer the latter,
but it really doesn't change anything for the better.
- Steve
Steve, you perhaps accidentally point out what in my opinion is the
primary weakness of this so-called "Complexity" group. That weakness
being, again solely in my opinion, an inability or perhaps an
unwillingness to face the real substantive, important complexity
issues that surround us.
Instead, the group nearly always proposes to study some superficial
abstract, academic side issue. It doesn't seem to matter what the
particular "complexity" issue du Jour is, the "solution" proposed, but
never implemented by the members of this list is *always* some
abstract, distancing, academic approach.
Not that I am picking on you, really I am not. But seriously, are you
proposing to use an ABM to explain the societal effects of religious
fundamentalism? That would be a side show. It would place a level of
abstraction between the real issue and the observer which would
totally mask the underlying causal issues.
Those issues, of course, being the irrational, hateful, harmful
effects of mass adherence to narrow, fundamental religious dogma, plus
whatever the deep underlying psychological urges are that constantly
seem to draw whole populations into those belief systems.
You don't need an ABM to illustrate that; you need a few good history
books.
And if you want to understand why people are so prone to locking
themselves into destructive, exclusive, egocentric world-views, well,
good luck with that. I suspect however that game theoretics and ABMs
are not the proper tools for the job.
--Doug
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com
<mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:
Hussein -
I hear you... many of us are challenged to defend the name of
our God or our Faith or our gender or our cultural or genetic
heritage or sexual orientation or hair color or set of our jaw.
Even when obviously (but superficially?) motivated, these are
false challenges and to accept them is a fools game.
The shrill voices against Islam (or even "ahem" Mormons) are not
helping, even if some who act in it's name are doing horrific
things. Those who paint with a broad brush can only slop their
own paint on themselves...
From much distance at all, everyone else looks like "other".
I'm often disappointed with this list (myself included) that we
invoke the terms of Complexity Science but don't often take it
anywhere.
Is there a game theoretic model, or more to the point, an agent
model based on game theoretic principles that might help to
illuminate this phenomenon? The phenomena of personal vs shared
belief, sectarianism, intolerance? Is there a small subset (in
the spirit of the oft-cited MOTH strategy for prisoner's dilemma)
of the phenomena that can show a bit of it?
- Steve
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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