First things first: the bumper sticker. It is, sadly, real, and not just a photoshopped artifact:
It came out of Georgia, and the woman who created it was shocked, just shocked, that people would think it racist. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/don-t-nig-purveyor-paula-smith-says-bumper-185405237.html More to come... On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > Doug - > > You may be correct that the tools are insufficient and/or distancing > through abstraction... and yes it may be a side show. But as you point > out, a side show that has not even been mounted. > > > *Those issues, of course, being the irrational, hateful, harmful effects > of mass adherence to narrow, fundamental religious dogma, plus whatever the > deep underlying psychological urges are that constantly seem to draw whole > populations into those belief systems. > > * > > I don't disagree that these are the *symptoms* we experience/observe. But > I'm still more than a little curious about the *causes*. You might posit > (I think you did! ) that the *cause* of various irrational, hateful, > harmful effects are "mass adherence to narrow, fundamental, religious > dogma" and I can't really argue with you on that. But where the hell does > *that* come from? Is it necessary? > > My suggestion of a model (at the risk of distancing through abstraction) > is to seek a more "systematic" answer... *What* are those underlying > psychological urges you speak of? Are there alternative systems of > thinking and organization that might yield more desirable global > behaviours? > > What *fundamental* aspects of our systems of belief (religious, political, > economic, social, etc.) are *guaranteed* to lead us there over and over. > Call it Islam, call it Mormonism, call it Logical Positivism, but why does > it so often lead us back to the same self-rightous, intolerant places? > Were not most if not all religions founded or evolved or shaped around > trying to fix the existing flaws in the systems previously in place? > > > *You don't need an ABM to illustrate that; you need a few good history > books.* > > You may read different history books than I do. The history books I > read illustrate *that* whole populations are drawn into dysfunctional > behaviours supported by their belief systems (though depending on who wrote > them, it is always a one-sided story, glorifying one set of dysfunction in > contrast to another demonized set. > > I suggested *illumination* not *illustration*. I can look around, from > your (existing only in photoshop I suspect) racist bumpersticker or just > about every conversation I hear to have what we are talking about > *illustrated*... but what I want to know is *what is it all about?*, is > there anything to be done! CAN we get enough distance through abstraction > to discover actionable or effectual changes in local strategy to effect > global change? > > Or do we just fall (dive headlong?) into a bubbling mass of xenophobic > blame and/or self-righteous cynicism? I personally prefer the latter, but > it really doesn't change anything for the better. > > - Steve > > > > > Steve, you perhaps accidentally point out what in my opinion is the > primary weakness of this so-called "Complexity" group. That weakness > being, again solely in my opinion, an inability or perhaps an unwillingness > to face the real substantive, important complexity issues that surround us. > > Instead, the group nearly always proposes to study some superficial > abstract, academic side issue. It doesn't seem to matter what the > particular "complexity" issue du Jour is, the "solution" proposed, but > never implemented by the members of this list is *always* some abstract, > distancing, academic approach. > > Not that I am picking on you, really I am not. But seriously, are you > proposing to use an ABM to explain the societal effects of religious > fundamentalism? That would be a side show. It would place a level of > abstraction between the real issue and the observer which would totally > mask the underlying causal issues. > > Those issues, of course, being the irrational, hateful, harmful effects > of mass adherence to narrow, fundamental religious dogma, plus whatever the > deep underlying psychological urges are that constantly seem to draw whole > populations into those belief systems. > > You don't need an ABM to illustrate that; you need a few good history > books. > > And if you want to understand why people are so prone to locking > themselves into destructive, exclusive, egocentric world-views, well, good > luck with that. I suspect however that game theoretics and ABMs are not > the proper tools for the job. > > --Doug > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > >> Hussein - >> >> I hear you... many of us are challenged to defend the name of our God >> or our Faith or our gender or our cultural or genetic heritage or sexual >> orientation or hair color or set of our jaw. Even when obviously (but >> superficially?) motivated, these are false challenges and to accept them is >> a fools game. >> >> The shrill voices against Islam (or even "ahem" Mormons) are not helping, >> even if some who act in it's name are doing horrific things. Those who >> paint with a broad brush can only slop their own paint on themselves... >> >> From much distance at all, everyone else looks like "other". >> >> I'm often disappointed with this list (myself included) that we invoke >> the terms of Complexity Science but don't often take it anywhere. >> >> Is there a game theoretic model, or more to the point, an agent model >> based on game theoretic principles that might help to illuminate this >> phenomenon? The phenomena of personal vs shared belief, sectarianism, >> intolerance? Is there a small subset (in the spirit of the oft-cited MOTH >> strategy for prisoner's dilemma) of the phenomena that can show a bit of it? >> >> - Steve >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Los Alamos Visualization Associates >> LAVA-Synergy >> 4200 W. Jemez rd >> Los Alamos, NM 87544www.lava3d.comsas@lava3d.com505-920-0252 >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org >> > > > > -- > Doug Roberts > drobe...@rti.org > d...@parrot-farm.net > http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins > > 505-455-7333 - Office > 505-670-8195 - Cell > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > -- Doug Roberts drobe...@rti.org d...@parrot-farm.net http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
