In my opinion.
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 9:22 AM, Roger Critchlow <r...@elf.org
<mailto:r...@elf.org>> wrote:
[...]
*Incredible but true, some people start ignorant and become more so.*
-- rec --
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Douglas Roberts
<d...@parrot-farm.net <mailto:d...@parrot-farm.net>> wrote:
First things first: the bumper sticker. It is, sadly, real,
and not just a photoshopped artifact:
It came out of Georgia, and the woman who created it was
shocked, just shocked, that people would think it racist.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/don-t-nig-purveyor-paula-smith-says-bumper-185405237.html
More to come...
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com
<mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:
Doug -
You may be correct that the tools are insufficient and/or
distancing through abstraction... and yes it may be a
side show. But as you point out, a side show that has not
even been mounted.
/Those issues, of course, being the irrational,
hateful, harmful effects of mass adherence to narrow,
fundamental religious dogma, plus whatever the deep
underlying psychological urges are that constantly
seem to draw whole populations into those belief systems.
/
I don't disagree that these are the *symptoms* we
experience/observe. But I'm still more than a little
curious about the *causes*. You might posit (I think you
did! ) that the *cause* of various irrational, hateful,
harmful effects are "mass adherence to narrow,
fundamental, religious dogma" and I can't really argue
with you on that. But where the hell does *that* come
from? Is it necessary?
My suggestion of a model (at the risk of distancing
through abstraction) is to seek a more "systematic"
answer... *What* are those underlying psychological
urges you speak of? Are there alternative systems of
thinking and organization that might yield more desirable
global behaviours?
What *fundamental* aspects of our systems of belief
(religious, political, economic, social, etc.) are
*guaranteed* to lead us there over and over. Call it
Islam, call it Mormonism, call it Logical Positivism, but
why does it so often lead us back to the same
self-rightous, intolerant places? Were not most if not all
religions founded or evolved or shaped around trying to
fix the existing flaws in the systems previously in place?
/You don't need an ABM to illustrate that; you need a
few good history books./
You may read different history books than I do. The
history books I read illustrate *that* whole populations
are drawn into dysfunctional behaviours supported by their
belief systems (though depending on who wrote them, it is
always a one-sided story, glorifying one set of
dysfunction in contrast to another demonized set.
I suggested *illumination* not *illustration*. I can
look around, from your (existing only in photoshop I
suspect) racist bumpersticker or just about every
conversation I hear to have what we are talking about
*illustrated*... but what I want to know is *what is it
all about?*, is there anything to be done! CAN we get
enough distance through abstraction to discover actionable
or effectual changes in local strategy to effect global
change?
Or do we just fall (dive headlong?) into a bubbling mass
of xenophobic blame and/or self-righteous cynicism? I
personally prefer the latter, but it really doesn't change
anything for the better.
- Steve
Steve, you perhaps accidentally point out what in my
opinion is the primary weakness of this so-called
"Complexity" group. That weakness being, again solely in
my opinion, an inability or perhaps an unwillingness to
face the real substantive, important complexity issues
that surround us.
Instead, the group nearly always proposes to study some
superficial abstract, academic side issue. It doesn't
seem to matter what the particular "complexity" issue du
Jour is, the "solution" proposed, but never
implemented by the members of this list is *always* some
abstract, distancing, academic approach.
Not that I am picking on you, really I am not. But
seriously, are you proposing to use an ABM to explain the
societal effects of religious fundamentalism? That would
be a side show. It would place a level of abstraction
between the real issue and the observer which would
totally mask the underlying causal issues.
Those issues, of course, being the irrational, hateful,
harmful effects of mass adherence to narrow, fundamental
religious dogma, plus whatever the deep
underlying psychological urges are that constantly seem
to draw whole populations into those belief systems.
You don't need an ABM to illustrate that; you need a few
good history books.
And if you want to understand why people are so prone to
locking themselves into destructive, exclusive,
egocentric world-views, well, good luck with that. I
suspect however that game theoretics and ABMs are not the
proper tools for the job.
--Doug
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Steve Smith
<sasm...@swcp.com <mailto:sasm...@swcp.com>> wrote:
Hussein -
I hear you... many of us are challenged to defend
the name of our God or our Faith or our gender or our
cultural or genetic heritage or sexual orientation or
hair color or set of our jaw. Even when obviously
(but superficially?) motivated, these are false
challenges and to accept them is a fools game.
The shrill voices against Islam (or even "ahem"
Mormons) are not helping, even if some who act in
it's name are doing horrific things. Those who paint
with a broad brush can only slop their own paint on
themselves...
From much distance at all, everyone else looks like
"other".
I'm often disappointed with this list (myself
included) that we invoke the terms of Complexity
Science but don't often take it anywhere.
Is there a game theoretic model, or more to the
point, an agent model based on game theoretic
principles that might help to illuminate this
phenomenon? The phenomena of personal vs shared
belief, sectarianism, intolerance? Is there a small
subset (in the spirit of the oft-cited MOTH strategy
for prisoner's dilemma) of the phenomena that can
show a bit of it?
- Steve
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
--
Doug Roberts
drobe...@rti.org <mailto:drobe...@rti.org>
d...@parrot-farm.net <mailto:d...@parrot-farm.net>
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins
505-455-7333 <tel:505-455-7333> - Office
505-670-8195 <tel:505-670-8195> - Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
--
Doug Roberts
drobe...@rti.org <mailto:drobe...@rti.org>
d...@parrot-farm.net <mailto:d...@parrot-farm.net>
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell
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