Ok, owen. Let's say I put on a bomb vest, put my FRIAM T-shirt on over it, and blew myself up and 30 soldiers at the military base where that poor schmuk Bradley Manning is being held. Let's say, I leave an email circular claiming that I did it in the name of a Free Internet. The reporter comes to your door, and asks you 3 questions: "Mr. Densmore: as one of the founding members of FRIAM, how do you respond to this Thompson's action? AND, "Mr. Densmore, what is your position on the imprisonment (without trial, visitors, etc.) of Bradley Manning?" and "what is FRIAM's official position on internet freedom?" I think if you go through this exercise, you will have a hard time NOT sounding one of those Muslim clerics asked about the death of the Ambassador to Libya.
Nick From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 7:00 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: America and the Middle East: Murder in Libya | The Economist Of course, Owen, we could be asking the same thing about the "good" Catholic community regarding all the years of child sex abuse and coverups in that religion. --Doug On Sep 14, 2012 4:30 PM, "Owen Densmore" <o...@backspaces.net> wrote: My interest is not the extremists, but the fact that the leaders and majority do not protest against them, do not make themselves heard. So it is about religion, but it could equally be about the NRA or racism or human rights or whatever. Where the majority is silent. And the leaders do not lead. Not that I don't understand the religious issues, and your clear points against them (and with which I am sympathetic), but that I'm looking at another, broader issue that seems to appear not only in religions but many other areas. Is it not striking to you that the leaders and majority are silent? We know many Muslims here in Santa Fe who are sane and gracious. They deplore the extreme events. But they have not yet found a platform for inserting Islam, the Good Parts, and their deploring the extremists, into the public discourse. -- Owen On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Douglas Roberts <d...@parrot-farm.net> wrote: Let's see if I understand you correctly, Owen. There are a bunch of fundamentalist Islamists all up in arms shouting "Allahu Akhbar" whilst burning down our embassies and killing our diplomats because there is a film out that is derogatory of the Muslim religion. And this is not about religion? I don't see it. Or you don't see it. What I do see is that there is one very large disconnect on this particular issue. --Doug On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Owen Densmore <o...@backspaces.net> wrote: I do not believe this to be a religious issue at all. The question is of groups and institutions. When a faction of a group becomes apparently insane, do we not expect the entire group, its leaders and majority, to speak up and to mend? When civil rights were an issue in the south, many of us (I was at Georgia Tech) spoke up, and indeed many churches of all stripes did so. Many NRA members also speak up about the extreme position the organization takes. Examples abound. And yes, I consider this a Complexity domain, much like Miller's Applause model. Isn't this possibly a cultural issue? Possibly regional? The largest Muslim population is not Libya or Egypt or even all of the middle east, its Indonesia. They do not appear to have this issue. So my question stands as Kofi stated: "Where are the leaders? Where is the Majority? Nobody speaks up." NOT the religious leaders but the leaders of the culture in which the religion lies. And Hussein, forgive me, but your inward religious stance has nothing to do with speaking out against injustice. It is not a religious issue, but a civic, cultural one. -- Owen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org -- Doug Roberts drobe...@rti.org d...@parrot-farm.net http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
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