Joshua, You are spot on.
I am not sure what we are comparing here. Are we equating bad actions to good actions? Of course this is misleading, because this discussion can only demonstrate our ignorance of all the good actions, Moslims, Christians and all those use Religion to drive them to do good things, are doing allover the world, and our biased attention focus on bad actions. Maybe the real disagreement in this discussion is on how to lead and leadership models. It seems this is where the problem lies to me and some of us "believe" in one leadership model, while others believe in an opposite model. Some think that leaders should stand in front of bad, while others think that leaders need to focus on growing the good and with conservation laws, the bad shrinks naturally. Maybe we should revisit natural selection and if necessarily make it artificial selection. Owen: is not it by definition that if you are convinced that there exists a majority of good people that this majority succeeded already to make itself visible to counteract minorities! Or was your talk about majority a mere hypothesis that is yet to be proven? Cheers Hussein On 15/09/2012, at 8:52 AM, "Joshua Thorp" <jth...@redfish.com<mailto:jth...@redfish.com>> wrote: But how do we know this? How would you expect a non-extemist to be heard? Its not like a non-extremist is going to blow up an extremist group… Sort of by definition. Plenty of people have spoken out against the events this week. But what more can they do? The bombs are news worthy. The people speaking out against the bombs just don't have the same bang. Goes of course for catholics as well. I constantly hear about another priest having raped another set of children. I don't hear much about the good acts of catholics, though I assume their must be plenty -- just doesn't make the news the same way. Where have the leadership and majority been on that issue? I keep hearing about Bishops that have covered up for this or that bad priest, but are there Bishops speaking out against this behavior? I bet there are but I don't hear it very often. And when I do it is said almost matter-of-fact-ly like, 'of course this is wrong'. Very much in the same way we hear muslims speaking about extremist violence, 'of course this wrong'. It just doesn't stick the same way as the images of violence. --joshua On Sep 14, 2012, at 4:29 PM, Owen Densmore wrote: My interest is not the extremists, but the fact that the leaders and majority do not protest against them, do not make themselves heard. So it is about religion, but it could equally be about the NRA or racism or human rights or whatever. Where the majority is silent. And the leaders do not lead. Not that I don't understand the religious issues, and your clear points against them (and with which I am sympathetic), but that I'm looking at another, broader issue that seems to appear not only in religions but many other areas. Is it not striking to you that the leaders and majority are silent? We know many Muslims here in Santa Fe who are sane and gracious. They deplore the extreme events. But they have not yet found a platform for inserting Islam, the Good Parts, and their deploring the extremists, into the public discourse. -- Owen On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Douglas Roberts <d...@parrot-farm.net<mailto:d...@parrot-farm.net>> wrote: Let's see if I understand you correctly, Owen. There are a bunch of fundamentalist Islamists all up in arms shouting "Allahu Akhbar" whilst burning down our embassies and killing our diplomats because there is a film out that is derogatory of the Muslim religion. And this is not about religion? I don't see it. Or you don't see it. What I do see is that there is one very large disconnect on this particular issue. --Doug On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Owen Densmore <o...@backspaces.net<mailto:o...@backspaces.net>> wrote: I do not believe this to be a religious issue at all. The question is of groups and institutions. When a faction of a group becomes apparently insane, do we not expect the entire group, its leaders and majority, to speak up and to mend? When civil rights were an issue in the south, many of us (I was at Georgia Tech) spoke up, and indeed many churches of all stripes did so. Many NRA members also speak up about the extreme position the organization takes. Examples abound. And yes, I consider this a Complexity domain, much like Miller's Applause model. Isn't this possibly a cultural issue? Possibly regional? The largest Muslim population is not Libya or Egypt or even all of the middle east, its Indonesia. They do not appear to have this issue. So my question stands as Kofi stated: "Where are the leaders? Where is the Majority? Nobody speaks up." NOT the religious leaders but the leaders of the culture in which the religion lies. And Hussein, forgive me, but your inward religious stance has nothing to do with speaking out against injustice. It is not a religious issue, but a civic, cultural one. -- Owen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org<http://www.friam.org/> -- Doug Roberts drobe...@rti.org<mailto:drobe...@rti.org> d...@parrot-farm.net<mailto:d...@parrot-farm.net> http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins <http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins> 505-455-7333<tel:505-455-7333> - Office 505-670-8195<tel:505-670-8195> - Cell ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org<http://www.friam.org/> ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
