Yes, there hasn't been an abstruse message in at least 10 whole minutes... On Apr 17, 2013 6:37 PM, "Owen Densmore" <o...@backspaces.net> wrote:
> Its starting to get lonely here! > > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 4:44 PM, Steve Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: > >> !Owen - >> >> I can't wait for Marilyn Monroe (with a Groucho Marx moustache and cigar >> and Nick Thompson eyebrows) to break into "Happy Birthday Mr. Computer >> Guy!, Happy Birthday to you.... " >> >> I have to say (Owen) that this doesn't even come close to any reality I >> live in: >> >> "The general problem os software verification is not solvable by >> computer". (sic) >> >> This would never work at any cocktail party I've been to... I admit it >> might be the simplest way of saying it that has a chance of being explained >> in *one more* unpacking, but is more likely to just end the conversation >> (young lady with Nick's eyebrows cocks her head and says "I think I hear my >> stock broker calling!" as she walks off). So maybe your approach to >> progressive disclosure is more "recursive" than "iterative". If her "Big >> Bold Naivete" comes with her "Nick Thompson eyebrows", she might stick >> around for another couple of rounds of unpacking. Like "what in heaven's >> name does 'software verification' have to do with anything, and why would I >> *care* if you can do it with a computer or not?". >> >> In facte I would claim that *almost literally* anyone who understands >> your postulation: >> >> "The general problem os software verification is not solvable by >> computer". >> >> agrees with it, and anyone who doesn't probably has *virtually* no clue >> what you are talking about? >> >> I admit that Nick (in Marilyn drag) has set you up a little by using >> words like HALTING, suggesting the (s)he has a more familiar >> vocabulary/lexicon than in fact (s)he probably does. I suppose anyone who >> knows the technical definition of "halting" probably already understands >> the phrase: >> >> "The general problem os software verification is not solvable by >> computer". >> >> Beyond this, I don't understand why someone (Owen?) would understand this >> phrase: >> >> "The general problem os software verification is not solvable by >> computer". (sic) >> >> yet would imagine that the rigorous methods of computer science would put >> Philosophical questions to bed. I'd suggest that *most* of Philosophy has >> been hand-verifying programs written in logic, classifying them, and >> creating an (ever growing?) bin of "quite possibly undecidable" (but >> non-trivial and interesting) statements. I sense that you (Owen) don't >> agree/believe that this ever-growing bin is a *result* of the application >> of very formal methods (although driven by intuition and executed in >> psuedo-natural language) rather than *in spite of* the same? >> >> >> - Steve >> >> “But Mr. Densmore: what is the problem of software verification.”**** >> >> ** ** >> >> I would bat my eyes, by my eyebrows would get in the way. **** >> >> ** ** >> >> Nick **** >> >> ** ** >> >> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<friam-boun...@redfish.com>] >> *On Behalf Of *Owen Densmore >> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 17, 2013 3:03 PM >> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> *Cc:* Frank Wimberly >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Isomorphism between computation and philosophy**** >> >> ** ** >> >> On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Nicholas Thompson < >> nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:**** >> >> **** >> >> <snip>**** >> >> ** ** >> >> So, Owen, you meet a beautiful woman at a cocktail party. She seems >> intelligent, not a person to be fobbed off, but has no experience with >> either Maths or Computer Science. She looks deep into your eyes, and asks >> “And what, Mr. Densmore, is the halting problem?” You find yourself torn >> between two impulses. One is to use the language that would give you >> credibility in the world of your mentors and colleagues. But you realize >> that that language is going to be of absolutely no use to her, however ever >> much it might make you feel authoritative to use it. She expects an >> answer. Yet you hesitate. What language do you use? **** >> >> ** ** >> >> Your basic English.**** >> >> You would start, would you not, with the idea of a “problem.” A >> problem is some sort of difficulty that needs to be surmounted. There is a >> goal and something that thwarts that goal. What are these elements in the >> halting PROBLEM? And why is HALTING a problem? **** >> >> ** ** >> >> Well, I do get asked a lot about computation and have found a >> "progressive disclosure" approach best. I'd start by saying exactly what >> Michael Sipser, Intro to Theory of Computation, does: **** >> >> ** ** >> >> "The general problem os software verification is not solvable by >> computer". **** >> >> ** ** >> >> Usually that is clear enough but if more is needed, we progressively >> discuss what software is and how it is modeled in computer theory. Believe >> it or not, I've had this sort of thing lead to Finite State Automata, first >> as circles and arrows but then to the formal 5-tuple. And this was not a >> mathematically sophisticated person.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> -- Owen**** >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >
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