Not being a Doctor, however I did consult one today who is pretty up to date on these issues since she does surgery on AIDs patients, it seems that AIDS is not a bug but a state of the Immune System. A Syndrome. She did say that there were those who agree with you about the connection of HIV to that State of the Immune System but she didn't agree with that. She felt the connections were clear enough for her. As for the other diseases, in my ignorance but having had many friends and students die from this and having heard many medical discussions it was that these diseases you list are the result of a suppressed Immune System. But again I am not a Doctor. I do know people with suppressed Immune Systems due to such things as severe environmental factors and they are not diagnosed with AIDS but they are diagnosed with a suppressed Immune System. I also know folks who are both HIV and non-HIV but with suppressed Immune Systems who have been helped immensely with cancers and other marker diseases who lived very unhealthy lives, on American diets and the like, with the same sex lives as started Psycho-Analysis in 19th century Vienna. But people who have now outlived most of the pack by meditating and cleaning up their lives nutritionally and staying away from such things as Micro-waves and too much electricity.
I too mistrust the Allopathic world on these things for the same reason that I mistrust Economies of Scale. Humans are too Unique. When the medical world can't explain why one tribe in Africa can only eat meat and drink cow's blood while another twenty miles away only eat plants and meat sickens them and when people cure themselves of Cancer using special diets like Macro-biotics I think we should be a great deal more humble than we are. All of the data that we swear by is to a great degree educated guessing and the idiot who turned the modern Health Care System into a money making scheme where it pays a Doctor or a pharmaceutical company to keep you sick but they get no pay for keeping you well does not convince me of the intelligence or logic of most inhabitants of the planet who swear on invisible hands, ideal markets, and other creations of the 19th century mind in a world the 19th century never knew or even imagined. In short I don't think anyone thus far has any better explanation for AIDS than the old conspiracy theories that located it in some Germ Warfare laboratory. But caring is another matter and withholding funds for research because you don't like the people who get it or they are too far away is immoral. Ray Evans Harrell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Ray Evans Harrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "pete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 9:35 PM Subject: Re: [Futurework] Stephen Lewis has one word for us: Help > Ray, > > As I indicated, officially, if you have HIV antibodies in your system > (showing you have fought off an attack), and you also suffer one of the 29 > illnesses - such as cervical cancer - that are listed by the AIDS camp, > then you have AIDS. > > Perhaps others can provide a better description of AIDS. > > I listed the African diseases in my note to Pete. Same definition > apparently applies there. > > However, HIV testing is a mess in Africa. It is probably better here, but > cost is a factor. So, it is now apparently very rare for anyone to be > actually tested for AIDS which is expensive and takes expertise. Perhaps > another FW can provide more information (hopefully without propaganda). > > Just remember viruses hit everyone. "AIDS" is non-random. > > Viruses increase exponentially, then die away as precipitously. Then they > are gone. The advocates argue that when nothing appears to happen after an > attack, it can come back perhaps 10 years later and kill you. Viruses don't > do that. And so on, and so on, and so on. > > And we still haven't found the paper that originally linked HIV to AIDS. > Seems that in the thousands - tens of thousands - of papers on AIDS, there > isn't one that demonstrates the link. > > Interesting? > > Harry > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ray wrote: > > >Harry, > > > >Did you define AIDS? > > > >REH > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Harry Pollard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "pete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 3:02 PM > >Subject: Re: [Futurework] Stephen Lewis has one word for us: Help > > > > > > > Pete, > > > > > > At the bottom of this note is an anecdote of a competent individual who > >was > > > asked to look into the connection between HIV and AIDS. So, he tried to > > > find the original paper or papers that made the connection. He is Kary > > > Mullis, Nobel Prize winner in Chemistry. As he said: > > > > > > "Thus, when I found myself writing a report on our progress and goals for > > > the project, sponsored by the National Institutes of Health, I recognized > > > that I did not know the scientific reference to support a statement I had > > > just written: "HIV is the probable cause of AIDS." > > > > > > "So I turned to the virologist at the next desk, a reliable and > > > competent fellow, and asked him for the reference. He said I didn't need > > > one. I disagreed. While it's true that certain scientific discoveries or > > > techniques are so well established that their sources are no longer > > > referenced in the contemporary literature, that didn't seem to be the case > > > with the HIV/AIDS connection." > > > > > > Mullis continued to search, but could not find any of the basic papers > > > demonstrating a link between HIV and AIDS. This is no surprise for there > > > aren't any. > > > > > > If you want additional notes on his search, read the excerpt lower down. > > > For all of it, you can find his story at: > > > > > > http://www.duesberg.com/viewpoints/kintro.html > > > > > > I must say, I find a similar "non-connection" between CO2 and Global > > > Warming. Is the connection as stated - or perhaps it's Global Warming that > > > increases CO2? Or perhaps there is no connection either way. > > > > > > Perhaps, scientists are sure there must be a connection. They have assumed > > > so. But, they also assumed there was a connection between AIDS and HIV. > > > Also a connection between interest rates and recession. And . . . . . > >? > > > > > > I must say, my two little assumptions of the Classical Analysis - self > > > evident observations of human behavior, subject to instant confirmation or > > > rejection - seem mild by comparison. > > > > > > My assumptions (they aren't really mine) come into play in the AIDS arena. > > > The CDC's needed a new and important virus for their raison d'etre. They > > > were beginning to be considered an unnecessary expense. Also, virologists > > > are just lab technicians until something new and terrifying arrives. AIDS > > > was a godsend to the professionals in the field. > > > > > > It's also the way for virologists to become stars - a not unnoticed > > > consequence. > > > > > > So, there have apparently been tens of thousands of papers about AIDS - > >but > > > not one establishing a connection between HIV and AIDS. > > > > > > Yet, how many times have you read the mantra: "HIV - the virus that causes > > > AIDS." > > > > > > You'll note I said that an ordinary disease becomes AIDS if you test HIV > > > positive. It's worse than that. There is evidently still no real > >definition > > > of AIDS. There is a list of (now) 29 illnesses which are officially an > > > indication of AIDS (including such no-nos as cervical cancer - what in > > > heavens name does this have to do with anything?) > > > > > > Well, including cervical cancer, tuberculosis, and some others brings > > > heterosexuals into the action. A problem for the AIDS advocates is that it > > > is non-random. You expect anyone and everyone to contract flu, for > >example. > > > Not so with AIDS which attacks specific easily identified groups. > > > > > > Why? > > > > > > However, this isn't so in Africa, where everyone can get it and probably > > > does as Stephen indicates when he tears our hearts with his disaster > >stories. > > > > > > From '91 to '99, the continent of Africa generated 75,000 cases of AIDS a > > > year (average from WHO). There is no breakdown into deaths, survival, or > > > recoveries. > > > > > > The population of the continent is 616 million. Is 75,000 cases in 616 > > > million an epidemic? If you assume that all the 75,000 are deaths and > > > relate them to total African deaths the AIDS deaths are 0.6% of the total. > > > > > > However, the plot thickens. The HIV testing is poor. False positives > >abound > > > - indeed, tuberculosis and malaria will give positives without HIV. > >Zambian > > > doctors have gotten pretty mad when the same person can be tested twice > >and > > > give opposite results. > > > > > > That's not all. In South Africa - and perhaps elsewhere - an HIV test is > > > not necessary to diagnose AIDS. (Tell me how the two Classical assumptions > > > apply.) > > > > > > Just like everywhere else, African AIDS is not defined. There are simply a > > > bunch of diseases which are called AIDS. These include: > > > > > > weight loss over 10%, > > > chronic diarrhea for more than a month, > > > fever for more than a month, > > > persistent cough, > > > generalized pruritic dermatitis, > > > recurrent herpes zoster (shingles), > > > candidiasis oral and pharyngeal, > > > chronic or persistent herpes, > > > cryptococcal meningitis, > > > Kaposi's sarcoma. > > > > > > As Peter Duesberg says: > > > > > > "Since these diseases include the most common diseases in Africa and in > > > much of the rest of the world, it is impossible to distinguish clinically > > > African AIDS diseases from previously known, and concurrently diagnosed, > > > conventional African diseases." > > > > > > Oh, yes it is. President Clinton told us: " ... spurred by US intelligence > > > reports that looked at the pandemic's broadest consequences, ... > > > particularly Africa ... [he] projected that a quarter of southern Africa's > > > population is likely to die of AIDS ..." (Washington Post, April 30, > >2000). > > > > > > Heaven save us from politicians! As I said, an ordinary everyday disease, > > > when suffered by an HIV positive becomes instant AIDS. Yet, the testing > > > procedure for positives is severely compromised. > > > > > > Africans don't realize their danger of their extinction. They are breeding > > > like crazy as Steve would no doubt confirm. Population of the whole > >African > > > continent has grown from 274 million in 1960, to 356 million in 1970, to > > > 469 million in 1980, and to 616 million in 1990 (UN). The relatively small > > > incidence of AIDS cases (whatever they are) is perhaps statistically > > > insignificant (except to President Clinton). > > > > > > Pete, could your "crippled food production" be caused by something else - > > > say drought, or African politicians, or food aid? > > > > > > Then, you start getting bitter. > > > > > > "Besides, they're just black africans, so who cares?" and > > > > > > "Yes, maybe better to just let them suffer and die without treatment. > > > They'll be gone so much sooner, and then we'll have access to all that > > > land, that they never seemed to know how to put to proper use." and > > > > > > "We need a fine follow up post here by Dean Swift. I'm too disgusted to > >try." > > > > > > As I mentioned - I think to Karen - emotion is good to get you incensed > > > about a wrong. It is effective when you are actively doing something about > > > a wrong. But, in between, you need to think about what must be done. > > > Emotion is not an asset to thinking - as you show. > > > > > > The fact is, Pete, you've been had. The conn job worked - and you are not > > > alone. > > > > > > (I've deleted your post, as I've quoted from it. If anyone thinks I may > > > have misquoted Pete, I'll repost with it. The Mullis excerpt is below. > > > Latest about Montagnier is that he might be changing his mind about the > > > "certainty" of HIV/Aids. > > > > > > Harry > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > The Hopeless Quest (My title) - Kary Mullis (Nobel Laureate) > > > > > > Of course, this simple reference had to be out there somewhere. > > > Otherwise, tens of thousands of public servants and esteemed scientists of > > > many callings, trying to solve the tragic deaths of a large number of > > > homosexual and/or intravenous (IV) drug-using men between the ages of > > > twenty-five and forty, would not have allowed their research to settle > >into > > > one narrow channel of investigation. Everyone wouldn't fish in the same > > > pond unless it was well established that all the other ponds were empty. > > > There had to be a published paper, or perhaps several of them, which taken > > > together indicated that HIV was the probable cause of AIDS. There just had > > > to be. > > > > > > I did computer searches, but came up with nothing. Of course, you can > > > miss something important in computer searches by not putting in just the > > > right key words. To be certain about a scientific issue, it's best to ask > > > other scientists directly. That's one thing that scientific conferences in > > > faraway places with nice beaches are for. > > > > > > I was going to a lot of meetings and conferences as part of my job. I > > > got in the habit of approaching anyone who gave a talk about AIDS and > > > asking him or her what reference I should quote for that increasingly > > > problematic statement, "HIV is the probable cause of AIDS." > > > > > > After ten or fifteen meetings over a couple years, I was getting > >pretty > > > upset when no one could cite the reference. I didn't like the ugly > > > conclusion that was forming in my mind: The entire campaign against a > > > disease increasingly regarded as a twentieth century Black Plague was > >based > > > on a hypothesis whose origins no one could recall. That defied both > > > scientific and common sense. > > > > > > Finally, I had an opportunity to question one of the giants in HIV and > > > AIDS research, DL Luc Montagnier of the Pasteur Institute, when he gave a > > > talk in San Diego. It would be the last time I would be able to ask my > > > little question without showing anger, and I figured Montagnier would know > > > the answer. So I asked him. > > > > > > With a look of condescending puzzlement, Montagnier said, "Why don't > > > you quote the report from the Centers for Disease Control? " > > > > > > I replied, "It doesn't really address the issue of whether or not HIV > > > is the probable cause of AIDS, does it?" > > > > > > "No," he admitted, no doubt wondering when I would just go away. He > > > looked for support to the little circle of people around him, but they > >were > > > all awaiting a more definitive response, like I was. > > > > > > "Why don't you quote the work on SIV [Simian Immunodeficiency Virus]?" > > > the good doctor offered. > > > > > > "I read that too, DL Montagnier," I responded. "What happened to those > > > monkeys didn't remind me of AIDS. Besides, that paper was just published > > > only a couple of months ago. I'm looking for the original paper where > > > somebody showed that HIV caused AIDS. > > > > > > This time, DL Montagnier's response was to walk quickly away to greet > > > an acquaintance across the room > > > ****************************** > Harry Pollard > Henry George School of LA > Box 655 > Tujunga CA 91042 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Tel: (818) 352-4141 > Fax: (818) 353-2242 > ******************************* > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.434 / Virus Database: 243 - Release Date: 12/25/2002 > _______________________________________________ Futurework mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://scribe.uwaterloo.ca/mailman/listinfo/futurework
