As Nicola said, moving from ant+xslt+bash to python was a tremendous improvement. I just wonder if we should stop there, especially given that this community is basically java gurus with a little big of python envy for some of the features (that could be replicated in java, if one *really* wanted them, btw).
Adam R. B. Jack wrote:
I have started to use python myself because I loved the much faster try/fail cycle of a scripting language and python looked a lot friendlier than other scripting languages.
Python is fun to get started with & has some really nice features. My guess is I've not even come close to touching the nicer parts ('cos I've yet to leave Java thinking far enough behind) and I kinda look forward to getting there, some day.
But in my experience, it doesn't scale in terms of complexity as much as java does.
Sure doesn't.
Well, ask the Zope people about that: not many agree in python-guru land (and not only for ego or protection of their past decisions).
The strong vs. weak typing debate is vivid in my head.... and you can say that no matter how deep you go to describe the metadata associated to your dependencies, there is a point where all of them get weak.
Gump, for example, shows how the time variable makes a strongly typed system become weakly typed.
Also, if you get pretty heavy with Collections, even Java becomes weakly typed.
*but* for some reason, java scales better with size and internal complexity. it feels more solid, at least to me.
Good practices (unit tests, getting good coverage, pychecker
and all) can help, but any line/character not touched is a potential
time-bomb. That said, those good practices are needed w/ any language, they
just take discipline.
Very true. Fact is this is a community of java programmers which a tendency for not really caring about religions and just getting the job done.
I'm not against python or your work, I just wonder if this isn't blocking all the tremendous java expertiese that we all have.
Basically, I've come to live w/ that realization & stopped trying to take so many short cuts (despite knowing better). Maybe I owe Python thanks for that. ;-)
I've found a bunch of stuff I can't do w/ Python, but then I've found similar w/ Java. Python is clearly far less mature, but I doubt that will last very long. Basically, I have a love/hate relationship w/ Python (I've caused myself a lot of hours of pain), but I don't regret having tinkered with it.
I can sense that (otherwise, you have would have given up) but I also see that as much as Gump was a one-man-show (driven by Sam) this gump is another one man show (driven by you).
I consider myself Gump one of the most incredible innovations of the entire foundation. I wonder what's going to happen if you go away or stop being interested in that.
I'm not saying it's your fault, not at all... it's *our* fault that we don't contribute... but everytime I think about looking at the code the complexity of all that python just scares me away a little.... so I postpone and I never do it.
I *really* want to extend gump so that it builds apr httpd and subversion... but everytime I want to start, some other thing comes up and that itch goes away.
Yesterday was one of those days and I think I know realize that it's because of python.
I wonder how many others on this list feel the same, thus my RTs.
Also, it seems that there is a lot of black magic in getting it to run very solidly, while java has years of polishing on seriously loaded environments.
That could easily be me. I chose to do some
So, I wonder: what would you think about a gump in java?
Good idea? Maybe. Personally, I've invested so much in Python Gump to want
to back off (although 6 months ago I'd've been there in a heart beat).
Personally, I feel Gump is beautifully irrelevant -- if it dropped of the
face of the planet few people would notice -- but when it find issues &
helps out, it is a sweet thing.
Personally, I think gump is the most important project of the entire ASF, but it will take a few more years and a lot more work in certain other directions to show that.
For me it is a beautify folly; so what better than to experiment with, to teach some Java folks a new tool, to learn Python & get a new perspective on the world?
If it floats your boat, I'm happy. I'm just concerned that the day you find something that is more interesting, we are left with a codebase that nobody knows how to maintain.
BTW: Won't Java (with JDK 1.5 feature) + Groovy and Python be about the same thing sooner or later, anyway? ;-) The similarities will outweigh the differences. ;-)
There is a psycological impact in community dynamics that should not be underestimated.
Basically, I think Python Gump was the right thing to do 'cos it breathed
life into a somewhat mundane/infrastructural task.
True.
I do think it has become a barrier to entry for many,
> which I find disturbing.
Bingo.
As such, I'd not fight
against folks wanting to re-write in Java ('cos that is clearly quite
doable).
Cool.
NOTE: I *DO NOT* have a plan to rewrite Gump in java anytime soon, I don't think I have the energy and itchness for it.
-- Stefano.
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