Hi Greg,I'm afraid that you have totally mistranslated my message and I have no idea why.
I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm trying to be reasonable. I don't perceive your reaction as positive.I'm not going to continue this discussion until you have something concrete to discuss. I voted to accept Subversion into the incubator. Your turn.
Craig On Nov 8, 2009, at 5:25 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
The Apache Incubator is about EDUCATION. It is about TEACHING podlings how to work here at Apache. It is not about making podlings thoughtlessly follow checklists. It is about TEACHING them what are the important aspects of development at Apache. About SHOWING them each of the items to be aware of. It is not about blind adherence to rules and procedure without regard to the podling's experience. It is about LEARNING who the podling is, what they do, what they have done, and what they are capable of, and producing a TEACHING experience for that podling so that they can be an effective and proper project here at the ASF. --- I was thinking, "hey. no problem. we can go a bit out of our way and produce a release tuned for the Incubator needs" and made a suggestion. That didn't satisfy some people, so further requirements were thrown in. "hmm", I thought, "well... that shouldn't be too much more of a burden". And then I received Craig's email below, and it brought me back to sanity. I had been forced off the path, and now realize just how crazy it is.On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 20:19, Craig L Russell <craig.russ...@sun.com> wrote:...As I thought I said earlier, *any* release that has proper Apache packaging, licensing, and notices is fine with me. We've had this discussion in the incubator before, for similar reasons, and I think there is consensus that a formal review of a podling release is a reasonable gate for graduation. No one needs to believe that the release is stable, tested, reliable, etc.; itjust needs to be reviewed.Please let me translate: "ANY release is fine, even if that release DOES NOT satisfy the project's ESTABLISHED LEVELS OF QUALITY. Shoot. All we want is *something*. Oh, and since it has completely inferior quality, it doesn't even have to be distributed! See how easy that is! Oh, never mind, that if we don't put it into the regular distribution channels, and don't make the regular announcements, then YOU'RE NOT DOING A REAL APACHE RELEASE." Nope. No way. The Subversion developers have years of experience releasing code here at Apache. Personally, I've been involved in releases of httpd and apr for the past ELEVEN years. Then we can talk about the additional years/decades of experience brought by Sander, Justin and DLR. Oh, and did I mention that Garrett was the VP of APR? That he was on the hook for making releases here at Apache? If a relatively new committer on the APR project wanted to make a release, then they would get handheld by the old-timers. They would make mistakes, but those would be caught before final release. That newbie does not come here and subject themselves to the oversight of the Incubator PMC. They are subject to the APR PMC itself. It makes no sense to apply hand-holding to a project that already has old-timers. Forget the hand-holding, and TEACH the arriving project about the overall guidelines. Point them at the ASF's release guidelines, maybe note where there are differences from the existing guidelines, and then let the PMC apply the correct oversight. If there are no old-timers, or if the project wants to make a release *while* in the Incubator? Then sure... apply the release guidelines. But applying the thumbscrews now is no indicator of future compliance. At the ASF, we make the PMCs responsible. *LET* them be responsible. The suggestion of a sub-par release, that should be hidden from the public is just ridiculous on the face of it. It teaches the incoming podling several things: * there are people who follow rules rather than solving a problem * you will want to route around those people, which means politicking * satisfying a checklist is more important than teaching I don't want to see those principles taught to Subversion. I don't want to see those taught to ANY podling. The Incubator PMC is here to TEACH podlings. Stop and think before attempting to apply "rules and procedures". -g --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Craig L Russell Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo 408 276-5638 mailto:craig.russ...@sun.com P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
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