A small issue if the economy goes down the drain on the scale you are talking about is that an internet where everyone has the capability to connect to a cloud system is going to be difficult to maintain. It's not going to be easy for google to make money, for individuals to pay their internet bills, for internet companies to continue to deliver access - indeed you may find it difficult for yourself to make money or pay for the developers you are proposing to hire. What value will money have? How will google pay its employees to continue to deliver app engine - ad revenues are going to plummet. I think if your system is anticipating the total collapse of the economy, then you may find it difficult to deliver your system to what remains.
When you say credit free currency, do you mean credit free society? How do you plan to make it credit free - through legislation? What's to stop me lending some currency I have in your system to someone - or making a purchase on their behalf in exchange for a purchase by them of something more valuable at a later date? That scenario is essentially an interest bearing loan. The system and those that use it exist in a symbiosis - you can't change one without addressing the other - it's hard to see how you will create a credit free society without addressing the psychology of the people within that economy - people need to *want* to avoid credit, and when you haven't got much, and others seem to have so much, credit is an insidiously attractive proposition - it's easy to market and sell. You'll probably need to address the gulf between rich and poor, and marketing of impossible, unaffordable goals to remove credit from society - perhaps you feel that economic collapse will do that. Does your plan deal effectively with the reality of the flawed, selfish human being? I guess I'm asking about your second point - is it based on a global societal enlightenment occurring due to the economic collapse? If you don't have much money to back this venture then a few points stand out 1. The cloud is *much* cheaper than any custom hardware installation you can come up with. Security isn't just data security - you need to manage backups, uptime, support, maintenance, facilities, redundancy, disaster recovery - long list of stuff that will cost you buckets before you even get started. 2. You need to do some risk assessment. There are always risks, and many of them - there is no perfectly secure system, and it is important not to try and sell such a thing. It is just a matter of how you rate each risk, and important that the stakeholders understand the risk and agree to it - the last thing you want to have is a conversation where someone says 'You told me it was secure!!!'. It can't be secure unless it is truly inaccessible to everything and everyone, and you can't build a system around that :). Risk assessment is generally subjective - what is the chance of someone obtaining a password they shouldn't? What is the chance of the cloud vendor exposing data? What is the chance that your code contains bugs? What is the chance of the cloud vendor losing your data entirely - http://gigaom.com/2009/10/10/when-cloud-fails-t-mobile-microsoft-lose-sidekick-customer-data/? The list goes on. If you build a system where there is perceived value in subverting it, then it will probably be subverted. It is much better to cope with it than try to prevent it (you can't prevent it). What you need to prevent against is the possibility that any particular problem or combination of problems results in total failure. Some key questions you need to ask - 'What is the worst that can possibly happen?' 'How likely is it?' 'What can I do to reduce the worst that can possibly happen, and the chance that it will happen - i.e. how do I mitigate my risk?' 'Can I afford to implement mitigation strategy X, Y or Z?' 'Am I prepared to accept the consequences of the risk being realised?' Usually it is easier to answer yes to this question when the rewards (not necessarily financial) are higher. You need to deliver a system that allows you to answer yes to the last question, for every risk you identify. Sometimes you cannot reach the point where the answer is 'yes' - the risk is not worth the reward. <slight political rant (IMO)> A good example is the recent financial crisis. The banking sector took risks, understanding that the worst possible outcome (for them) was not actually as bad as is being portrayed - they felt that they would still not fail because they commanded enough political power to rely on federal funds. So what seemed incredibly risky behaviour by the banks, was, in fact, not all that risky - because they had shored up their political power to mitigate their risk. Consequently, the worst that could possibly happen with all the risks the banks took was that they would be fine. And largely, they are fine. Good risk management they would say - it wasn't all that risky. Not for them. Incredibly risky for the taxpayer, but that risk wasn't their concern - at least not from their perspective. You can be sure that it was a possibility they were aware of. The nation(s), however, totally lost a handle on their risk management - the banks should never have been allowed to reach a position where they could mitigate their risk with federal funds - essentially the risk was transferred to the tax payer. If they were unable to do that, then they wouldn't have taken the risks in the first place, because they could not have answered 'yes' to the last question. It is difficult to see how the nation(s) could have avoided this problem though - the stakeholders (the citizens) have very limited means by which to limit the subversion of power from within their political process - most of these powerful people within government are not elected. </slight political rant (IMO)> You might also consider an approach to security like Google's - they offer a platform so compelling that many customers will use the system despite google making no promises on security or reliability - 'use at your own risk'. Is your product so compelling that you can mitigate some of your risk by transferring it to your customers? Google also benefits here from significant goodwill and reputation, but that takes time and evidence - we have seen in their reaction to the Chinese hacking scandal that they take the compromise of customer data very seriously. My gut feel is that the security you want, you can't afford - so use the cloud, encrypt the personal data you need to, and mitigate the remaining risk by transferring it to your users. Just make them aware of the risk they are taking - you might find they'll accept that risk and use your system anyway. Where google basically says 'Trust us, we're Google', you need to say 'Trust me, it's on Google'. Most of the customers that would go for the first statement will go for the second. You say it would not be responsible to trust google - but this is what you are asking of your customers - to trust you with the security of their information. Trust is a huge factor in risk assessment and security. Many banks trust third party organisations with customer information, or to write software that secures customer information. You're going to have to trust someone. I think history and common sense tells us that our economy will probably go down the chute at some point - our system is pretty tightly strung, and doesn't cope very well with fairly minor disturbances. It's utterly dependent upon confidence, and totally global. Natural systems manage risk through redundancy and diversity - failure doesn't bring the whole thing down. I doubt our brilliant idea of having one global economy is going to have nature going - 'Hey, why didn't I think of that?' - more like - 'Tried that, didn't work - you should have asked. In the meantime, here's a small icelandic volcano to deal with - get the idea?'. We are selfish idiots ruled by selfish idiots, urging each other to become more so. Probably not the best architecture we could come up with. Our society could learn something from the way we build distributed software. On May 24, 7:06 am, Keren Or Shalom <v07768198...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Group Members: > > I thought it over again. I found out that in effect the cloud does not today > meet my requirement for security. > > I definitively think that this is the place to discuss that project. > > I think I have to tell this forum exactly what is my project and that will > give you a better grasp on what is required. > > First I don't believe that my System will have to operate before mid > September: it is a short term for common men it is a very long-term for that > kind of technology. > > My project is a very simple one from a technological point of view but it is > very involved in the field of macro economy, money emission and game theory. > > I have no doubt that each and everyone of you have the necessary > mathematical knowledge necessary to understand those economic notion but > very few of you are in a position to fully adhere to that system: as John > Maynard Keynes stated famously in his General Theory of Employment Credit > and Money: "The ideas which are here expressed so laboriously are extremely > simple and should be obvious. The difficulty lies, not in the new ideas, but > in escaping from the old ones, which ramify, for those brought up as most of > us have been, into every corner of our minds." > > I have proved that sooner or later this economy will go down the drain. The > cause being the very existence of credit. > > The condition of that economic collapse are almost met. > > There is no scientific way to date that collapse however it is my estimate, > at the present moment, that this collapse would take place in mid September. > > I have determined that no public entity, as we know them today, would be in > a position to crate the condition of a functioning economy in the short > term. > > I have determined that the solution would be to create a credit free > currency. > > I have determined that the only solution would be to create a money emission > institute which is in effect a data base. > > The access to this data base must be a wide range of means of > telecommunication, what is today called means of payment. > > Access can be made through the internet, which would be the easiest but I > think that it should accept more simple means like very simple cellular > phone or rudimentary dedicated electronic devices. > > Although the management of the database can't be delegated the means of > payment, access to the data base and the creation of markets where supply > and demand for good and services would meet, should be the role of private > entities that would sell that kind of services. I call these services > anonymous socio economic networks. They have to be anonymous in order for > people to be able to reclaim their privacy. > > If one or several of you want to get more involved in the project and take > some real responsibility which are beyond my technical knowledge I believe > they will have to understand, that is easy, and accept, that is not possible > for everyone, the scientific basis of my economic conclusion. I am ready to > give some of the necessary knowledge that would be required to grasp that > subject. > > The subject he would have to understand would be: > > 1- Why the economy will necessarily collapse and under what conditions. > > 2 - Why people will adhere to that system and why they will trust that > currency. > > 3 - How we will implement the monetary policy with a credit free currency. > > ... > > I won't insult you by describing the kind of security such a system would > require. > > That system resembles much that of the management of checking account on > which there would be no credit. > > Although at the present moment I have very little economic resources, anyone > who would get involved readily understands that economic resources won't be > an issue within a very short period of time. > > The person or persons that would care to get involved in that kind of > project need to have a lot of creativity being able to delegate work and > probably, but that is less important, some managerial and leadership > capacity. He would have to be able to imagine how a system on the cloud can > be meet secure which, for now, is a real challenge. > > The reason I came to the conclusion that the cloud would be the solution > are: > > - Speed and ease of implementation. > > - Low cost. > > If it is my role to provide the necessary economic knowledge it is for you > to propose the technological solutions which is beyond my capacity. > > I am, members of this group, yours sincerely. > > On 24 May 2010 07:18, SivaTumma <sivatu...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > I think the cloud is meant for open social, blogs, etc or more > > straight forward, it is for the ones who wish to show off. > > People coined an opinion saying " No one who has to ensure security, > > would probably never use appengine or any cloud.. may be simpleDB of > > amazon". > > > People who are considered of security, may have to wait till the > > AppEngine folks introduce their SQL support. probably, that would have > > more security. > > and then, Domain specific access scenario in google apps would > > probably help too. > > > But, I hope to see this discussion continue till it resolves in a > > fruitful end-result. ( Something that is reliable, authorized > > information. ) > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Google App Engine" group. > > To post to this group, send email to google-appeng...@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com<google-appengine%2Bunsubscrib > > e...@googlegroups.com> > > . > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en. > > -- > V07768198309 > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Google App Engine" group. > To post to this group, send email to google-appeng...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > google-appengine+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group > athttp://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. 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