Isn't it weigh in*? Anyway, jeez this blew up fast. We're not going to get anywhere if we bicker back and forth though. No one is trolling anyone, we're all just from different perspectives and offer different viewpoints. This is the sort of thing why a discussion needs to take place, we are not the only problem Valve has, or the only group of people they ignore.
And this group doesn't have to be an "official channel" , I'm not suggesting we be a circle-jerk of ideas that only affect us, but we all need to come up with something fair to everyone here. This mailing list is still an awful place for this discussion to go down, there is too much cross talk and it's super easy to get annoyed at each other. On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 6:52 PM, Matthias "InstantMuffin" Kollek < proph...@sticed.org> wrote: > Yep, trolling. > Thanks for making it obvious. > > Anyone with an actual constructive interest wants to way in? > > > On 19.12.2015 00:47, Cats From Above wrote: > > Firstly, if the group was to be an official channel (which will never > happen) then there is good reason why someone without vested interests in > server hosting should be channeling the discussion back to Valve. I'll use > Mathias as an example. Matthias is very clearly anti-advertising and > believes that communities using such should be sv_tagged accordingly, if it > is allowed at all. I have no doubt that if Matthias was in a moderating > position, he would abuse said position to surreptitiously advance that > agenda irrespective of the official stance of the collective he is supposed > to be representing. I note that rules do not require communities to use > sv_tags for their MOTD content at this point in time – Yet Matthias clearly > believes that anyone who uses advertising as a revenue model is committing > some great moral evil, thus undermining his ability to work with others. > > > > Secondly, I wasn't aware Ross's response required any further debate or > discussion or that I was required to respond to every post made. However, > since Matthias seems to think that I robbed Ross of a response, yes, there > is a game server token system, obviously; No, Valve have not been using it > to ban servers within Team Fortress 2 and I suspect that they don't really > use it as a banning mechanism in CS:GO on regular basis aside from the > occasional knife plugin related ban (Ergo: To protect the item economy and > the profits associated thereof) - Though others are better able to comment > on the happenings of GLST in CS:GO servers hence why I initially did not. > Perhaps others on this mailing list could show that same type of restraint > henceforth, Matthias? > > Thirdly, there is nothing ironic about my post, perhaps Matthias needs to > revise the definition of the word irony. Moving onto the context in which > he used it, my stance is not as he presented it, but rather my stance is > that A) Valve won't be interested in pedestaling anyone within the realm of > "community" hosting as a source of feedback on this matter. B) Valve won't > be interested in limiting sources of feedback or what feedback they > receive, all feedback is valuable. C) That any such group will not > represent the various views of all operators and that operators are better > off making mature, private and direct contact with Valve instead of pushing > an agenda through a single channel that may not always be representative of > their community's stance on various matters. Matthias seems to completely > ignore that it is he, via pushing this suggestion of an official, filtered, > channel, that would seek to rob server operators with minority opinions of > a voice – That is an example irony. > > And lastly, the reason I don't care about the troll badge that Matthias is > so desperately trying to staple to my forehead is that it was given to me > by someone who doesn't even know Godwin's law – hardly a respectable > individual. For the uninitiated, Matthias, ye who casts the first Nazi > analogy loses the debate and thier credibility. Google it and bring a > more intelligent analogy in future. > > On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 8:50 AM, Matthias "InstantMuffin" Kollek < > <proph...@sticed.org>proph...@sticed.org> wrote: > >> GSPs have definitively established the meaning of what a "private server" >> is and so has Valve in the quickplay menu with "community servers". I see >> no need for further debate here. You can use whatever term you want, but >> it's ridiculous to say others official terminology is the wrong one to use >> - and furthermore, not helping the discussion. >> You still haven't fully understood the "voice concept" I guess. There is >> no reason why this group should be moderated by non-serverops. That is >> ridiculous. You might as well demand that the democrats should be >> represented by a Nazi. >> Also, it seems you have completely ignored Powerlord's (Ross) point, >> which is introducing tokens to properly identify, report and remove >> servers. I also don't care who brought up the slag's servers. It is neither >> me, nor Robert saying which community servers are bad (or rather, how >> abusive specific servers are to their players), as you noticed in your >> enumeration, it is the representative opinion of SPUF players. >> Now where lies the issue? In servers not being properly tagged (ads, p2w) >> and banned (fake players, p2w), therefore giving decent community servers >> the taint that comes with the baddies they're not related to. This is what >> the GSLT token system is for, and this is what Valve is already using in >> CSGO. >> It is ironic that you are against an organized group that moves this OT >> discussion into a constructive and moderated forum so Valve can hear us, >> while you are against Valve ignoring groups. So you're finally right. Valve >> is not interested in limiting itself to who or what it listens to. So why >> not let the server-ops have a voice as well, among other preexisting groups? >> Yes, I am interested in community servers thriving. But I am not >> interested in abusive, ad-infested, p2w communities that give honest and >> hard-working serverops a bad rep. >> Something no one has mentioned before, and as an explanation as to why >> some communities apparently (can't really verify what their ops say, I >> actually have opposing stats as I mentioned before), is that the >> mid-popularity communities die out due to the changes and their playerbase >> may or may not mitigate to the few popular communities that could establish >> themselves before the quickplay changes. Thus making it impossible to >> survive or start a community regardless of content and management if you >> aren't in the top 5%. >> >> Last but not least, if you say you're fine with wearing the troll badge, >> I think that shows your stance and your cause. I don't see you being >> opposing, or constructive. I see you rephrasing and hiding behind other >> people's points, and derailing the topic down to terminologies, saying >> nothing will work no matter what, literally laughing about others who try. >> And for those well-organized walls of texts, that's a bad yield. I think we >> got whatever small point you made, and I believe two sentences would have >> sufficed. >> >> >> On 18.12.2015 22:45, Cats From Above wrote: >> >> Firstly, perhaps the term I meant was actually private server operator. >> And yes, whilst it can be interpreted to refer to a “passworded” server, It >> can also be used to refer to the nature of its management - Ergo: Operated >> by a private entity other than Valve Valve. The term “community server” is >> somewhat emotive in this debate and it makes it sound like to have no >> “community servers” is indicative of poor health in the Team Fortress 2 >> “community” or something of that nature – Something that is not a given. >> >> Secondly, I find it mildly amusing that both Robert and Matthias have the >> chutzpa to go around telling modded server operators how well their servers >> are and are not doing – as if the operators themselves don’t know. A Fearts >> (DISC-FF) was on here earlier saying that Quickplay hasn’t negatively >> affected his modded servers and in fact since the Quickplay changes they’ve >> only gotten more popular. I myself have similar experience in this regard. >> >> Thirdly, I acknowledge the diversity of this group. However, I do not >> believe that pedestaling a select few private server operators as the >> “voice of all privately run servers” is the answer. Nor do I think Valve is >> interested in limiting itself to who or what it listens to nor would it be >> interested in having someone else picking and choosing what it hears. If >> such a group were made, it would need to be headed by someone with no >> vested interest in privately operated servers – In Vegan parlance this >> means someone that isn’t running or involved in the running of a community. >> >> Fourthly, the routine complaints on this mailing list every time Valve >> pushes an update is not community outcry, in my view. Every individual here >> who seems to have an issue with Quickplay has a vested interest in the >> operation of a privately managed server. Hence, I suspect that most >> involvement here is triggered by a desire to see one’s privately operated >> server(s) survive as opposed to any genuine care for the wider Team >> Fortress 2 community. >> >> Fifthly, SLAG was initially brought up by Robert in one of his earlier >> responses. He used it as an example of a popular modded community that had >> been significantly hurt by Quickplay, hence my response referring to SLAG's >> issues at an administrative level that are probably doing it more harm than >> Quickplay is. If Matthias read Robert’s response, he would have known why >> this comment was made. >> >> Sixthly, if putting forward an opposing point of view and throwing in the >> occasional ad hominem jibe makes me a troll, then it is a label I shall >> wear proudly. Thank you. >> >> Finally, you can bet your money that if I created a SPUF thread asking >> “Do you want community servers back in the default Quickplay pool?” that >> the overwhelming response will be “No”, with specific reference to not >> wanting things like, A) Advertising B) Fake players C) Pay to win benefits >> D) Abusive Admins E) Stupid game mods F) Arbitrary rules etc. – These are >> all stereotypes some Quickplay users “look forward to” when they join a >> community server and I don’t think Quickplay users more generally speaking >> want a bar of it. Valve are fully aware of this reality, hence the reason >> for the change they made in the first place. >> >> >> Regardless, N-Gon has aptly demonstrated the pointlessness of this >> conversation with his off-topic remark >> >> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 4:21 AM, Matthias "InstantMuffin" Kollek < >> proph...@sticed.org> wrote: >> >>> There is no community outcry, because this is the outcry. You're >>> expecting an outcry from people who are barely able to adjust their game's >>> settings, let alone disable the motd in their configs to get rid of >>> annoying ads. >>> I also don't know why you're bringing up Slag's servers. I've heard a >>> few stories about him. I know some model designers who he ripped off, he >>> stole their content without giving two fucks. It is also not quite >>> white-knighty of a community to sell unmutes and unbans. I wouldn't pick >>> him as the poster boy for well-run community servers or better phrased >>> "friendly". >>> If you're questioning the talent that is left in the modding community, >>> feel free to ask this question again in the next two months. >>> Honestly, I think you're trying to troll on a high level here. "One of >>> those vegan types", yeah sure. "Funny" >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit:https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >> please visit: >> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit:https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, > please visit: > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds > > -- *Matthew (Rowedahelicon) Robinson* Web Designer / Artist / Writer Website - http://www.rowedahelicon.com/
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