Linux-Advocacy Digest #929, Volume #26 Tue, 6 Jun 00 10:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (Pascal Haakmat)
Re: Canada invites Microsoft north (Bob Germer)
Re: SVGALib (2:1)
funny story (Mark Davirs)
Re: The State of the System Address (2:1)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Paul_'Z'_Ewande=A9?=)
Re: Boys Club for Linux (Nicholas Murison)
Re: Boys Club for Linux (Christopher Browne)
Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It? (Joseph)
Re: Canada invites Microsoft north (abraxas)
Re: Canada invites Microsoft north (abraxas)
Re: Boys Club for Linux (abraxas)
Otras noticias ("Erna Odelfsan")
Re: Why UNIX Rocks (Donal K. Fellows)
Re: Linux & MySQL vs. Windows & SQL Server ("ccghst")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Pascal Haakmat)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: 6 Jun 2000 12:36:48 GMT
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Daniel Johnson wrote:
>> What *elementary* *critical* functionality is missing?
>
>Conviniently for you, the post you are responding to
>contained the answer:
Ah.
>> >Unix *still* does not have a decent uniform printing
>> >service. They best it has managed is to partially
>> >standardize on PostScript, which is a second rate
>> >solution for this problem. Business cannot live
>> >without this.
>>
>> That businesses cannot live without some single vendor solution after they
>> have been locked into using that single vendor's solution is pretty
>obvious.
>> Does it signify anything other than that most businesses are suckers for
>> short term benefit?
>
>I know you don't *like* the fact that it is propriety, but this is as
>nothing next to the fact that it *works*.
No, I'm more or less indifferent to proprietary. What is important to me is
(hate that word) interoperability. Proprietary systems often fail to meet
my standards in that respect, though.
>> >This is a big part of what made Windows
>> >necessary in the first place.
>>
>> I've never felt it necessary to use Windows and just don't understand
>> statements alluding to "the necessity of Windows".
>
>Hmm.... well, "necessary' is too stong. "Desirable"?
>
>I'm refering to why people were willing to spend so much money
>to pay for Windows and the upgrades needed to make Windows
>work. This includes new applications, and is a very large
>sort of investment.
>
>> As far as I am concerned, if any such necessity even exists, it does so
>only
>> in the minds of the people who depend on Windows. That is not to say that
>> the necessity isn't real, but so is (warning: dramatization ahead) the
>> necessity of heroin to a heroin addict. "The necessity" just gets worse
>and
>> worse.
>
>You are fooling yourself. Expecting users to put up with DOS-style
>printing is expecting far too much. Condemning their desire for
>software that can print without so many problems as an addicition
>is quite silly.
Yes, that would be very silly. But I don't have any problems printing stuff
and I don't use Windows.
Perhaps more tellingly I rarely print anything these days.
>> >Unix also does not have even marginal support for
>> >games. Home users do insist on their games. OpenGL
>> >is not enough; you must support game controllers,
>> >sound, 2D acceleration, and net play.
>>
>> What is the incentive to support these things? Will people flock to
>> HaakmatOS after I implement them? Or will they continue to use Windows?
>
>You will need to provide something *better* than Windows, and enough
>better to justify switching. Just matching Windows probably won't enable
>you to replace Windows as the dominant desktop OS; even if your
>price-tag is 0, there are major costs to switching to a new OS.
Didn't IBM produce a better Windows in OS/2?
>"Just the same, but you never heard of us!" is not much
>of an advertising slogan, ya know. :D
"We're better and we're IBM" doesn't seem to work either.
>> Is it a surprise to you that the only OS in a long time posing at least
>> somewhat of a threat to Windows happens to be a non profit endeavour?
>
>I do not see any non-profit OSes that *are* a threat to Windows 98.
>
>I don't think any will *become* such a threat because their developers
>are completely non-responsive to the real problems facing desktop
>users. For instance, they don't see a problem with the DOS mode
>of printing, still less that of Unix. :D
You treat the "real problems facing desktop users" as if it were some kind
of constant. But in reality the "real problems facing desktop users" evolve
with time.
I'd say that currently macro viruses are "real problems" facing desktop
users. And in twenty years time desktop users will face the "real problem"
of accessing their then-ancient Word and WordPerfect documents.
This is not to detract from what I think is your central argument, namely
that the open source Unices are too hard to use for the desktop user. I
agree.
Where I don't agree (if that is what you're saying) is that this is somehow
bad. People wear different clothes, depending on their taste and the
occassion. People also choose different operating systems, depending on what
they think are (going to be) real problems.
In making that choice, there is a tradeoff. There are no "real problems" to
be solved, just tradeoffs to be made.
>> >One can quible about other things, but until these two
>> >issues are resolved, forget it. Even if Windows evaporated
>> >tomorrow, Unix will still not be able to take advantage.
>>
>> Conversely the issues will not be resolved so long as Windows doesn't
>> evaporate. Pick your poison.
>
>I do not think it is reasonable to ask the rest of the world to give up
>a working solution *just* to encourage Unix developers to implement
>such features.
I'm not saying the world should give up on Windows. What I'm saying is that
with the world hooked on Windows, alternatives are not likely to gain
popularity _based on merit alone_.
>I would point out that if Windows evaporated tomorrow, Unix vendors would
>have even *less* reason to implement such features than they do now;
>they would no longer have one competitor which had those features.
Good point. We'll just have to wait and see.
>Nor do I see how the evaporation of Windows would make the open
>source development community understand the needs of end-users
>any better.
As I said, the needs of end users differ, if only in time.
--
Rate your CSMA savvy by identifying the writing styles of
ancient and recent, transient and perdurable CSMA inhabitants:
(35 posters, 258 quotes)
<http://awacs.dhs.org/csmatest>
------------------------------
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: Bob Germer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Canada invites Microsoft north
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 12:40:04 GMT
On 06/05/2000 at 04:40 PM,
Brad BARCLAY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> Trevor Smith wrote:
> > We do not have a VAT, we have a GST. There are also provincial sales taxes in some
> > provinces (though not all) and I believe, in Ottawa, they have the PST (10% or 11%
>--
> > it's been a while since I lived in Ottawa) and the GST (7%). Here in the Maritimes
>we
> > have a "harmonized" sales tax (which includes our PST and GST) which we call the
>HST.
A rose by any other name smells just the same. Call it what you will, it
is classified by economists as a VAT.
> Just FYI, in Ontario (the Province in which Ottawa is located for
> lurkers) the PST is 8%. GST is 7% - so overall in Ontario there is a
> 15% Sales Tax.
My hotel bill from Ottowa shows 17%. My receipt for the clothing my wife
bought in Ottowa shows 17%.
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Posted from the OS/2 WARP v4.5 desktop of Brad BARCLAY.
> E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Location: 2G43D@Torolabs
--
==============================================================================================
Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 12
MR/2 Ice 2.19zf Registration Number 67
=============================================================================================
------------------------------
From: 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: SVGALib
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 13:53:24 +0100
Michael Mamone wrote:
>
> I was wondering if anyone knew how to take a screenshot of a program
> running via SVGAlib?
Yep.
http://fuji.stcatz.ox.ac.uk/edward/bmp.c
Put this code in to your svgalib program. (it may be possible to use it
in another svgalib program running on the same console but I haven't
tested it).
this does screen dumps from SVGALib in to (ugh) windoze bitmaps. Sorry,
but someone needed it like that, and I thought I'd pass it on.
Before you thake the piss I wrote it in 1:30 hours starting at midnight.
The main function incules a couple of examples.
Hope it helps.
-Ed
--
The day of judgement cometh. Join us O sinful one...
http://fuji.stcatz.ox.ac.uk/cult/index.html
------------------------------
From: Mark Davirs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: funny story
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:43:20 +0100
Hi all.
I'd like to revamp my website and dedicate it to 'funny I.T.' stories.
So if you have the time and a good story relating to computers and
especially administration then just e-mail it to me.
If you could include a little history, like when you started and on what
systems etc. you started out on, include your web site address and I'll
put a link in there if you like.
Many thanks for your time.
The website is at http://www.uunix.demon.co.uk but it's empty at the
moment.
I do apologise if this is off-topic, no harm is meant
Regards
Mark Davies
Silicon Graphics INDY MIPS R4400
Silicon Graphics IRIS MIPS R3000
IBM AS/400 CISC
------------------------------
From: 2:1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The State of the System Address
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 13:56:09 +0100
> reliable search engine, index, or "See Also" on manpages?
Often ^^^^^^^^
-Ed
--
The day of judgement cometh. Join us O sinful one...
http://fuji.stcatz.ox.ac.uk/cult/index.html
------------------------------
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Paul_'Z'_Ewande=A9?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:01:29 +0200
"Daniel Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> a écrit dans le message
news: Fl5%4.5699$[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<SNIP> Some stuff </SNIP>
> > >What about those of us who do not agree? Should we be forced
> > >down to Unix's level?
> >
> > Down? Working correctly for years at a time is a bad thing?
>
> Lacking essential features is a bad thing. Stability is not the
> end all and be all of everything, it's just the area where some
> Unix flavors are strong.
You hit the nail right on the head, IMO.
I don't care for a system which goes on and on for years, since I generally
turn it off when I'm done with it, especially if it doesn't do what I would
like it to do ?
I want a system which supports my hardware, has the software I want, and
allow me to do my stuff as hassle free as possible. Windows allows me that.
Some will find satisfaction on MacOS, Linux/UNIX, BeOS or even Amiga or OS/2
and I'm perfectly okay with that.
Why should I be unhappy in using Windows ? Why should I bow to others'
definition of computing experience ?
<SNIP> Some more stuff </SNIP>
Paul 'Z' Ewande
------------------------------
From: Nicholas Murison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Boys Club for Linux
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 15:36:21 +0200
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
LinuxMaybe wrote:
>
> Linux users are a bunch of sniveling little immature boys. Big on
> nasty comments, foul language, and wobbly arguments. There is a
> difference between advocacy and the smear campaigns you conduct. Here
> are just a few of the *many* guilty parties:
>
> Jeff carroll
> Charlie Ebert
> pac4854
> Chris Ahlstrom
> Terry Porter
> sandrews
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> simon777
>
> Don't get me wrong,, I happen to think Linux has a lot of potential.
> Unfortunately, the users of it are members of a little Boys club.
> Grow up and maybe your operating system will too!
Thank you for your wonderfully over-generalised view of the Linux
community.
--
Nicholas John Murison
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Don't mess with penguins
Registered Linux User #153895 http://counter.li.org
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: Boys Club for Linux
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 13:39:08 GMT
Centuries ago, Nostradamus foresaw a time when Nicholas Murison would say:
>LinuxMaybe wrote:
>>
>> Linux users are a bunch of sniveling little immature boys. Big on
>> nasty comments, foul language, and wobbly arguments. There is a
>> difference between advocacy and the smear campaigns you conduct. Here
>> are just a few of the *many* guilty parties:
>>
>> Jeff carroll
>> Charlie Ebert
>> pac4854
>> Chris Ahlstrom
>> Terry Porter
>> sandrews
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> simon777
>>
>> Don't get me wrong,, I happen to think Linux has a lot of potential.
>> Unfortunately, the users of it are members of a little Boys club.
>> Grow up and maybe your operating system will too!
>
>Thank you for your wonderfully over-generalised view of the Linux
>community.
What's interesting is that some of these are not "Linux users" at
all.
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - <http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/>
JOHN CAGE (strapped to table): Do you really expect me to conduct this
antiquated tonal system?
LEONARD BERNSTEIN: No, Mr. Cage, I expect you to die!
[With apologies to music and James Bond fans the world over...]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 06:48:00 -0400
From: Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Would a M$ Voluntary Split Save It?
Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> Alan Boyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > It was shortly after
> > that that MS came out with Windows 3.11 to fix some small bugs that had
> > been in the system for awhile. It also broke OS/2 for Windows, but that
> > they said that was just a coincidence, not intended at all [3].
>
> > [3] Want to buy a bridge?
>
> Windows 3.1 was released a mere few weeks before Windows 3.1 was released.
> Windows 3.11 was released almost 2 years later. This was not "shortly
> after". Additionally, Windows 3.11 included many of the fixes that were in
> Windows for Worgroups 3.11 plus enhancements such as the 32 bit disk and
> file system modules. WfWG 3.11 was massively different from Windows 3.1,
> despite the mere .01 version increment.
Windows 3.11 was not massively different from Windows 3.1. Windows 3.11
was released because OS/2 for Windows was a competitive threat to MS and
thier delayed Windows 4.0 and DOS 7.0 (WIn95). All MS did was mess with
the binaries to break OS/2 for Windows.
Comparing WFWG 3.11 to Windows 3.1 proves you're scared to talk about
Windows 3.1 and 3.11.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Canada invites Microsoft north
Date: 6 Jun 2000 13:52:44 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Bob Germer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 06/05/2000 at 02:13 PM,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas) said:
>> Are you still here, germer? I thought you ran away in shame the last
>> time every single last person on this newsgroup proved that you were a
>> paranoid, delusional, raving lunatic?
> You obviously cannot read. There is not a day in the past months I didn't
> post here. But then I guess you were on your medication for a while and
> are now obviously back off it.
Ah, you dont understand usenet either, do you germer. Thats sweet.
>> And as far as macos goes, the deciding factor was cost, not efficiency.
> The Mac OS failed because it was rejected by American business which
> adopted the Intel platform because of much superior software, choices
> regarding hardware, easier employee training, etc. The Mac was seen as a
> basic machine suitable only for the classroom by the leaders of American
> Industry which was a very, very accurate assessment of what was, is and
> will remain a bit player in a minor road company of the computer world.
> Even the toy company produced Amiga of 1985 was superior to today's
> plastic bubble game consoles called Macs.
You dont know what the hell youre talking about.
>> Idiot.
> You certainly are. Only a true idiot on drugs and with serious mental
> disorders would consider a Mac superior to anything beyond an Atari.
You're senile, arent you? I can recommend a couple of good rest homes
near you, germer...if youd like.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Crossposted-To:
comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Canada invites Microsoft north
Date: 6 Jun 2000 13:54:14 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy Bob Germer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 06/05/2000 at 02:15 PM,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas) said:
>> Yep, canada is like one huge HMO.
> Only a blooming, lying, idiot with severe mental problems would make such
> an assinine statement all the while hiding behind a false name.
1. how is the statement assinine?
2. you're too senile to understand that I was actually agreeing with you
3. you're seeing enemies everywhere now, arent you germer
4. im using apostrophes because its a good deed to be nice to old people
5. its not a false name
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (abraxas)
Subject: Re: Boys Club for Linux
Date: 6 Jun 2000 13:56:30 GMT
LinuxMaybe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Linux users are a bunch of sniveling little immature boys. Big on
> nasty comments, foul language, and wobbly arguments. There is a
> difference between advocacy and the smear campaigns you conduct. Here
> are just a few of the *many* guilty parties:
> Jeff carroll
> Charlie Ebert
> pac4854
> Chris Ahlstrom
> Terry Porter
> sandrews
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> simon777
Goddamnit, I want my name on that list, bitch.
> Don't get me wrong,, I happen to think Linux has a lot of potential.
You're probably terminally stupid as well, thus more likely than not,
your opinion doesnt count for a pile of goatshit.
> Unfortunately, the users of it are members of a little Boys club.
> Grow up and maybe your operating system will too!
Thats one hell of an argument you got there.
=====yttrx
------------------------------
From: "Erna Odelfsan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Otras noticias
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 13:57:07 GMT
Ah si, se me había olvidado; ya tengo hecho el examen de bases de datos,
un test de 25 preguntas a 0.4 por acierto y -0.2 por fallo; en fin, contesté
16 ... estoy en manos del destino.
Y luego finalmente, este mes he comprado la Sólo Programadores Linux (por
ver mi nombre más que nada) y ya te la dejaré ver. De momento sólo he visto
dos fallos en mi artículo. Saludos.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donal K. Fellows)
Subject: Re: Why UNIX Rocks
Date: 6 Jun 2000 13:49:09 GMT
In article <8h9t3r$obd$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[ someone claimed that Linux is great ]
> Really? Then why does it crash so often?
I've only ever seen Linux crash when I've been hacking the kernel.
Which is fair enough, IMHO. :^)
> Why is the documentation so poor?
Would you care to explain how it could be made better? With examples
that can be understood without either a background in or access to
your particular toolset.
> Why are the progamming tools so unpowerful?
How do you mean? Are you complaining about the way that you have to
combine tools together to achieve something, or that there are major
features that you believe are missing, or that the whole concept is up
the spout in some fashion which I've not thought of offhand?
> Why it doesn't support sane I/O?
Define "sane" please. Your concept of sanity might well correspond to
someone else's concept of drug-fuelled schizophrenia, so I cannot
deduce what you believe it ought to be from that short question. :^)
> Why does it have so many bugs?
Idiot developers that don't test adequately, and lunatic distributors
who insist on handing around the latest version of some component
before it has had a chance for all the bugs to be shaken out.
> The metrics which are important to me, as a professional developer,
> are:
>
> - Reliability
> - Quality programming tools
> - Excellent documentation
> - Utilities which can be used productively
> - A consistent and powerful API
They are important to me too, speaking as someone who develops
software for a living too. However...
> Linux does all five of extremely poorly. The more serious systems --
> VMS -- do them well. To be fair, I'm sure you're not a developer, and
> are mainly interesting in browsing the web and playing games, so these
> metrics aren't important to you. But you shouldn't claim that Linux
> is "great" including areas which you aren't faimilar with.
... the problem with your solution (VMS) is that I fail to comprehend
how to use it and yet I know how to use Unix. Comprehensibility and
capability are critical metrics; if you can't figure out how to make
the OS do what you want, why use that OS? Reliably doing nothing is
no use. Doing nothing with quality programming tools won't get you
paid. Excellent documentation that says "you can't do that" helps not
at all. And consistency is very much something that is dependent on
your point-of-view. (API power is a relative term; I want an API that
includes a ReadTheUsersMindAndFigureOutWhatTheyReallyWant() call. :^)
FYI, loads of people are productively using Linux utilities every day.
That point counts *neither* way.
Let's put it a different way. Why should I switch to using VMS? It
doesn't offer mind reading capabilities, and it is completely alien to
the Unix mindset. It doesn't even run on x86 or sparc architectures
(my home and work machines) to my knowledge so any argument you make
had better be pretty persuasive indeed. Does it even have a recent
version of Java or Tcl/Tk (my main dev. languages)? (IIRC, not the
latter as I've not seen any announcements on comp.lang.tcl.announce)
Kindly back up all lines of argument with concrete examples so that I
can understand and comprehend the detailed pitfalls and benefits that
such a major change would incur. As I don't know the OS at all, just
quoting the name of a VMS utility will get you a "So what?" response.
Donal.
--
Donal K. Fellows http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~fellowsd/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- I may seem more arrogant, but I think that's just because you didn't
realize how arrogant I was before. :^)
-- Jeffrey Hobbs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
------------------------------
From: "ccghst" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux & MySQL vs. Windows & SQL Server
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 07:00:51 -0400
Full Name wrote in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>...
>Going down the Oracle path is something you should not take lightly.
>Be prepared to outlay a large amount of resources in both initial set
>up and training. Check out some of the posts to
>comp.database.oracle.server.
>
>Don't believe you're just going to stick the CD the drive, run
>'orainst' and come back in half an hour. It's just not going to
>happen that way.
Good point. Oracle is geared toward very large scale
enterprise databases. It gives a lot of power, but requires
more effort to set up and administer.
------------------------------
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