Linux-Advocacy Digest #929, Volume #30 Sat, 16 Dec 00 11:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: Corel to pull out of Linux ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Nobody wants Linux because it destroys hard disks. (JM)
Re: Uptimes ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Nobody wants Linux because it destroys hard disks. (Swangoremovemee)
Re: Whistler review. ("Peter T. Breuer")
Re: A Microsoft exodus! (Russ Lyttle)
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (Tim Tyler)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! (Russ Lyttle)
Re: Caifornia power shortage... (Russ Lyttle)
Re: Caifornia power shortage... (Russ Lyttle)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Corel to pull out of Linux
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:30:53 GMT
I was unaware of the Microsoft/Corel connection. Thanks for the
enlightenment. I was puzzled by Corel's move in that I thought they were the
major player, along with Redhat, in the Linux world. Things make a little
more sense now.
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
------------------------------
From: JM <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Nobody wants Linux because it destroys hard disks.
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 14:41:06 +0200
On Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:33:46 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,
([EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)) wrote:
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Swangoremovemee
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote
>on Sat, 09 Dec 2000 16:07:57 GMT
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>On Fri, 08 Dec 2000 23:11:18 -0600, "Bobby D. Bryant"
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Also, you just tipped your hand, showing that you don't actually
>>>use the stuff you're so intently ragging on.
>>
>>
>>Of course he doesn't use it anymore. He tried Linux and quickly
>>discovered how much it sucked and dumped it. It's quite normal to do
>>that you know.
>
>Normal for you, maybe. Of course, that's the beauty of Linux;
>it doesn't cost anything [*] to use it, discover how much it sucks
>(actually, it rocks), and dump it (well, there's no accounting for taste).
>
>Imagine doing that with Whistler, at $550 a pop. Bankruptcy, anyone? :-)
>At least MS had half a brain and allowed users to buy upgrades at
>a discount. But one wonders which half.
>
>[.sigsnip]
>
>[*] beyond download time and disk storage costs, but download time
> costs are minimal (at most, a few dollars)
A few dollars? Maybe if it's a 10MB Download.
>and disk storage costs
> are an issue with both operating systems.
Especially with the offensively high cost of hard disks.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Uptimes
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:57:12 +0200
"Otto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:hrK_5.94292$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "R.E.Ballard ( Rex Ballard )" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> : If you are connected directly to the internet, and you
> : have a business event that triggers a huge traffic event,
> : your half-hour peak could involve over 1 million CALS spread
> : across 100 servers (the Victoria Secret video).
>
> No it would not. IIS 4.0 has no licensing requirement for internet
> connections.
Nor does IIS 5.0, for that matter, or any web server I'm aware of.
CAL doesn't mean that.
------------------------------
From: Swangoremovemee<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.linux.sux
Subject: Re: Nobody wants Linux because it destroys hard disks.
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:09:14 GMT
On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 04:05:22 GMT, "Kyle Jacobs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>TRANSLATION: You plug it in, and poof, it works, PERIOD.
>
A concept the Linux community has such a difficult time understanding
for some reason or another.
They are very good at digging up some oddball piece of hardware that
doesn't work with Windows but works with Linux. You know, that "thing"
you have sitting down in your basement covered with dust. You have a
real treasure there, because although it has been forgotten by
everyone still alive on earth,(most likely because it never really
worked properly anyway) but Linux can bring it back to life again.
Swango
"It Don't Mean a Thang if it Ain't Got That Swang"
------------------------------
From: "Peter T. Breuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Whistler review.
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:14:31 GMT
kiwiunixman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was reading up abit about Solaris, and apparently it is meant to be a
> combination of BSD and System V (ie the best attributes of each), whilst
> maintaining backwards compatibility to applications written for SunOS. True?
No. Solaris is sysv unix. SunOS was originally either/or depending on which
packages you chose to install. Solaris in general tends to be able
to run old solaris (and SunOS) apps, but no absolute guarantees, I
think.
At some point SunOS was renamed Solaris. I'm not sure when. Maybe
SunOS 5.6 equals Solaris 2.6 nowadays? Something like that? Anyway, go
over to solaris.faq and find out.
Peter
------------------------------
From: Russ Lyttle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:27:32 GMT
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Russ Lyttle writes:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Steve Mading writes:
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not exactly uncommon. When my VCR is "off", it's still on by
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to keep a clock running and monitor its programming to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determine whether to turn "on" (or should I say "more on") and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> record a program. Doesn't make the power switch any less
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intuitive.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, I would say that that sort of power switch is highly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unintuitive. Intuitively, you'd expect that turning something
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> off would, you know, actually turn it off.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on what you consider "off" to be. When you turn your
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> microwave oven off, do you expect it to lose the time? (Yes,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that does presuppose an oven with a clock on the display.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are there any new models that don't have one of those built in?)
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I haven't seen any microwaves with an on/off button lately.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay then, "Start/Stop", if you must be pedantic.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If they had them, then yeah, I'd expect them to at least turn
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the display off, and go down to a trickle that only serves
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to maintain a few K of RAM (for the clock and maybe some programs)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which takes very little power, as evidenced by calculators and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> watches, and could be done by battery like it is for CMOS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> settings on computers.)
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even with the display on, it could still be a trickle.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> All this "unintuitive" behavior of power switches is causing a major
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> problem in California.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Illogical. It is quite possible that people will generally know what
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to do with a power switch without needing to consult a manual, but will
> >>>>>>>>>>>> not generally know how much power is consumed in the on and off states.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Consider the AC adaptor for a modem, for example. The power switch is
> >>>>>>>>>>>> on the modem, not the AC adaptor.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Logical. The behavior of the power switch changed from its traditional
> >>>>>>>>>>> role. People *think* it still works the way it did 10 years ago.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Oh really? Your Curtis Mathes is older than that. You claim it kept
> >>>>>>>>>> the power on.
>
> >>>>>>>>> Yes, but it was very unusual for its time.
>
> >>>>>>>> Really? I had a clock-radio that when "off" kept the clock on. Very usual
> >>>>>>>> for its time.
>
> >>>>>> Note: no response.
>
> >>>> Note: still no response.
>
> >> Note: still no response.
>
> Note: still no response.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Its behavior isn't capable of being comprehended without logical thought.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> And with logical thought, the average consumer will know how much power
> >>>>>>>>>> is still being consumed by a unit even when the switch is in the off
> >>>>>>>>>> position? That's not the issue here.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> (See definition of intuitive).
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Practice what you preach.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> They are still trying to make decisions
> >>>>>>>>>>> based on the traditional use of the power switch - power cord setup.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> On the contrary, sounds like your example involves a mislabeled
> >>>>>>>>>> button. There is a difference between "video blank" and "power off".
> >>>>>>>>>> You've described the former. I've been talking about the latter.
>
> >>>>>>>>> No, they concern the device that serves as a power switch these days.
>
> >>>>>>>> An "off" switch that leaves 10 amps of power running isn't much of an
> >>>>>>>> off switch.
>
> >>>>>> Note: no response.
>
> >>>> Note: still no response.
>
> >> Note: still no response.
>
> Note: still no response.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The issue of all these devices still drawing power is keeping a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> load on the system that it wasn't designed to handle.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Are you suggesting that systems outside of California were somehow
> >>>>>>>>>>>> designed to handle it?
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> No. Outside CA, NY, and MA, there have been more plants built. These
> >>>>>>>>>>> plants are now selling some of their excess off peak power to CA. In the
> >>>>>>>>>>> past CA would sell power to Texas during the peak time in Texas and
> >>>>>>>>>>> Texas would sell to CA during the peak time there. Now the transfer is
> >>>>>>>>>>> all one way. To CA. But it is getting difficult for Texas utilities to
> >>>>>>>>>>> justify building more plants just to have power to sell to CA. They have
> >>>>>>>>>>> to justify the need for plants based on need in Texas.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> That has nothing to do with being designed to handle the load.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> That coupled with lack of new power generation in California is putting
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> a strain on the system now, promising a major breakdown in the near
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> future.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds like those Californians are going to have to do without their
> >>>>>>>>>>>> 72-inch projection televisions. (Did your Curtis Mathes need 10 amps
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to keep its filament going?)
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Note: no response.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Relying to much on intuition and not enough on reason is going
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> to get a lot of people killed.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The power consumed by a device in the off state has absolutely
> >>>>>>>>>>>> nothing to do with the issue of whether the power switch itself
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is intuitive.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Note: no response.
>
> >>>>>>>>> OK, what is your intuitive concept of the operation of a power switch?
>
> >>>>>>>> One position is "on" and the other position is "off".
>
> >>>>>>> The switch marked "on" and "off" on my 1903A4 Springfield is a Power
> >>>>>>> Switch?
>
> >>>>>> Show me your 1903A4 Springfield.
>
> >>>>> Next time you are in Arizona, give me a call.
>
> >>>> What's your number? I usually get to Arizona at least once a year. It's
> >>>> a big state, however. Don't expect me to look you up in Yuma.
>
> >>> Tucson/Pheonix. E-mail me.
>
> >> Most trips are to Tucson. Somewhat fewer to Flagstaff, which usually
> >> involves arrival at Sky Harbor.
>
> >>>>>>> Not all switches marked thus perform the same functions or
> >>>>>>> perform the same functions the same way!
>
> >>>>>> Irrelevant, given that I didn't say they do.
>
> >>>>> Looking at your post you definately said your concept of a power switch
> >>>>> has "One position is "on" and the other position is "off"."
>
> >>>> Yet you illogically turned that around and tried to make it sound like
> >>>> every switch with an "on" and an "off" must be a power switch.
>
> >>>>> So if that isn't your concept of a power switch, what is?
>
> >>>> Something that changes the state of the power applied to a device:
> >>>> power on, power off. That doesn't mean every switch with an "on"
> >>>> and an "off" is a power swtich. That's just plain illogical.
>
> >>> You said the intuitive concept of a power switch was a switch with one
> >>> position "on" and the other "off".
>
> >> I said my concept of a power switch is that one position is "on" and
> >> the other position is "off".
>
> Note: no response.
>
> >>>>> And why did you say it was your concept of a power switch?
>
> >>>> Because you asked me about my concept of a power switch.
>
> >> Note: no response.
>
> Note: still no response.
>
> >>>>> why won't my computer fire 30-06 rounds from the magazine when
> >>>>> the power switch is in the "on" position.
>
> >>>> You're erroneously presupposing that your computer has a magazine
> >>>> from which it might be able to fire rounds.
>
> >>> No, I'm supposing my computer has a switch with one position marked "on"
> >>> and the other marked "off".
>
> >> Why did you mention a magazine from which rounds are fired?
>
> Note: no response.
>
> >>> The '03A4 loads from a magazine when in the switch is in the "on"
> >>> position.
>
> >> Is it a power switch? If not, then it is irrelevant to the present
> >> discussion.
>
> Note: no response.
>
> >>> Therefore it is intuitive that the computer would do the same.
>
> >> Illogical, given that the discussion is about power switches, not
> >> some other kind of switches.
>
> > Your definition of a power switch :
>
> On the contrary, you asked me for a concept of a power switch, not a
> definition.
>
> >>>>>>> One position is "on" and the other position is "off".
>
> > Therefore, by your define both are power switches.
>
> Illogical. All pulsars are neutron stars. Does that mean all
> neutron stars are pulsars? No. Classic illogic on your part.
>
> > Want to change your definition?
>
> I didn't give you a definition. You asked for a concept. I gave
> you a concept.
>
> Want to change your accusation?
What is your intuitive concept of a power switch? Care to try to duck
the question again?
--
Russ Lyttle, PE
<http://www.flash.net/~lyttlec>
Not Powered by ActiveX
------------------------------
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.lang.java.advocacy
From: Tim Tyler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:22:06 GMT
In several advocacy ngs Anonymous <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Said Steve Mading in comp.os.linux.advocacy on 16 Dec 2000 00:16:24 GMT;
:> Anonymous <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
:>: It isn't anti-trust law, you see, which prevents a company from gaining
:>: a dominant market share. It is a free market; free markets do not allow
:>: monopolization, because the more valuable the opportunity, the greater
:>: the competition.
:>
:>I don't live in that utopia where that's true. I live on planet Earth.
: Sorry, game over. If free markets didn't work, in the real world,
: neither you nor I would by typing these words.
That does not address the pointraised. If free markets regulated
themselves there would be no need for anti-trust law and the monopolies
and mergers comission.
If unchecked, large companies can use their weath and power to wipe out
most of their competition before it gets off the ground.
Even a monopoly is limited in how high it can hike its prices before
it allows competitors back into the market - but letting them explore the
edges of this line would certainly mean consumers everywhere getting a
bad deal.
--
__________ http://alife.co.uk/ http://mandala.co.uk/
|im |yler [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://hex.org.uk/ http://atoms.org.uk/
------------------------------
From: Russ Lyttle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:31:38 GMT
Steve Mading wrote:
>
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Bruce Ediger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> : The arrow keys went left arrow/up arrow/down arrow/right arrow.
> : Exactly the motions that the h, j, k and l commands perform in "vi".
> : I assumed that Bill Joy (or whoever) put in hjkl because of familiarity
> : with VT-100 arrow keys.
>
> The story I'd heard is that Bill Joy's terminal actually had
> little arrows drawn on the keycaps right on the hjkl keys, and so
> that's what he used. The fact that this was fast because it was
> under the right hand (well, shifted off by one key) was not a planned
> benefit. It was sort of accidental.
Why were the arrows drawn on his keycaps?
--
Russ Lyttle, PE
<http://www.flash.net/~lyttlec>
Not Powered by ActiveX
------------------------------
From: Russ Lyttle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Caifornia power shortage...
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:49:33 GMT
"Aaron R. Kulkis" wrote:
>
> Russ Lyttle wrote:
> >
> > kiwiunixman wrote:
> > >
> > > In the case of alternative fuels, here in New Zealand (sorry for the
> > > repetition), we have Unleaded 91, Premium Unleaded (Leaded petrol had
> > > been outlawed around 3 years ago for environmental reasons), LPG
> > > (Liquefied Petroleum Gas) and CNG (Compressed Natural Gas). A car
> > > running on CNG, which my parents car runs on, if you have two CNG
> > > bootles, they commonly hold (combined) around $NZ15 (around $US6) worth
> > > of CNG, which normally will take you around 160km. LPG (A mixture of
> > > Butane and Propane) is slightly more expensive, however, there is no
> > > performance loss when moving from Petrol to LPG, when compared to the
> > > performance loss when moving from petrol to CNG. The great aspect of
> > > CNG is that it can be produced from Methane collected from biomass and
> > > rubbish dumps.
> > >
> > > kiwiunixman
> > >
> > > <snype>
> >
> > The big disadvantage is that you end up with more waste heat and CO2 per
> > km driven. Besides, gasoline is only a byproduct of the petro-chemical
> > industry. If 0 gasoline was used, we would still be creating just as
> > much pollution and using just as much oil. All those cheap plastic
> > gadgets, bottles, and bags start from oil.
> >
> > Did you know that in the porduction of NG (including LPG and CNG) that a
> > byproduct is "drip". Drip is a condensate that forms when NG is brought
> > to the surface. Drip is almost pure gasoline, mostly octane. The NG
> > companies now have to shut down some wells because they can't dispose of
> > the drip.
>
> Seems that this would create a market force to reduce the price of
> higher-octane gasoline formulas.
>
Correct. However, during the "energy crisis", Jimmey Carter issued an
executive decree that said that all the increase in the price of crude
oil has to be borne by gasoline. Thre were some "anti-windfall profit"
measures passed that prevented the NG companies from selling their
product at a slightly lower cost than the oil companies and thereby
gaining market share and making a big profit. In effect, they pay an
extra tax that brings their costs in line with the oil companies.
Net result is that drip is still dumped. If we suddenly switched to
alternative fuels, our crude inports would be the same, and the
government would have to switch the tax base to the alternate fuel. They
aren't going to give up all that money they make off gasoline sales.
> >
> > --
> > Russ Lyttle, PE
> > <http://www.flash.net/~lyttlec>
> > Not Powered by ActiveX
>
> --
> Aaron R. Kulkis
> Unix Systems Engineer
> DNRC Minister of all I survey
> ICQ # 3056642
>
> H: "Having found not one single carbon monoxide leak on the entire
> premises, it is my belief, and Willard concurs, that the reason
> you folks feel listless and disoriented is simply because
> you are lazy, stupid people"
>
> I: Loren Petrich's 2-week stubborn refusal to respond to the
> challenge to describe even one philosophical difference
> between himself and the communists demonstrates that, in fact,
> Loren Petrich is a COMMUNIST ***hole
>
> J: Other knee_jerk reactionaries: billh, david casey, redc1c4,
> The retarded sisters: Raunchy (rauni) and Anencephielle (Enielle),
> also known as old hags who've hit the wall....
>
> A: The wise man is mocked by fools.
>
> B: Jet Silverman plays the fool and spews out nonsense as a
> method of sidetracking discussions which are headed in a
> direction that she doesn't like.
>
> C: Jet Silverman claims to have killfiled me.
>
> D: Jet Silverman now follows me from newgroup to newsgroup
> ...despite (C) above.
>
> E: Jet is not worthy of the time to compose a response until
> her behavior improves.
>
> F: Unit_4's "Kook hunt" reminds me of "Jimmy Baker's" harangues against
> adultery while concurrently committing adultery with Tammy Hahn.
>
> G: Knackos...you're a retard.
--
Russ Lyttle, PE
<http://www.flash.net/~lyttlec>
Not Powered by ActiveX
------------------------------
From: Russ Lyttle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Caifornia power shortage...
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:54:23 GMT
Craig Kelley wrote:
>
> Russ Lyttle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Craig Kelley wrote:
> > >
> > > Russ Lyttle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > >
> > > > Craig Kelley wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Kills /some/ types of land. None of the reservoirs in our area
> > > > > (Idaho) have these problems, and many are as old as TVA projects.
> > > >
> > > > The land under the water is as productive as it was before it was
> > > > flooded?
> > >
> > > In most cases, its *more* productive because the water is used to
> > > irrigate farms that used to be wasted. Intelligent management of
> > > water is a plus for everyone and everything. Bad management leads to
> > > disaster, of course.
> > >
> > > > Fish can still move freely?
> > >
> > > The Flaming Gorge dam in eastern Utah created many more fish
> > > habitats, which helped the populations of several birds and mamals
> > > (including the Eagle). Before the dam, the green river had a
> > > feast-and-famine flow that precluded all these things.
> > >
> > > The cut throat salmon of the northwest have been affected by the
> > > Columbia dams, but many solutions are working (the worst of which are
> > > hatcheries). Pundits often ignore the other benefits of the Columbia
> > > dams on other species.
> > >
> > > > Wildlife migration patterns haven't been disrupted by the new lake
> > > > too big to swim?
> > >
> > > On the contrary, they provide more dependable water sources.
> > >
> > > > Hydroelectric has its place. But you can't run the country on the
> > > > few suitable hydroelectric sites that exist.
> > >
> > > Too true.
> > >
> > > > > To assert that the specific case applies to all general cases is a
> > > > > classic green tactic. One Chernobyl justifies a full ban on nuclear
> > > > > power.
> > > > >
> > > > > Interestingly, the new Chinese dam on the yellow river is going to be
> > > > > worthless in about 20 years because of all the silt. The project is
> > > > > behind, and they may only get 10 years of power out of the
> > > > > monstrosity. Any sane person would agree that these kind of projects
> > > > > need to be stopped, just as other dams make good sense.
> > > > >
> > > > As was true of the Aswan dam in Egypt. Built the dam, suddenly find all
> > > > the silt the Nile deposited on the land was trapped behind the dam. Dam
> > > > silts up, land quits producing crops. Duh.
> > >
> > > There are bad ideas in every area of science.
> >
> > As long as you don't call hydroelectric power the answer to all our
> > porblems, I can't argue much about your specific dams. The ones I worked
> > on on the Snake and Columbia were definite in my negative column for
> > impact. Cutthroat trout are nice, but Salmon are even better. Without
> > the dams we had both.
>
> And you still have both, even with the dams.
>
Any current statistics? Last I looked the salmon population was down
about 70%, and that only maintained by hatcheries dumping fingerlings
into the irrigation canals. The First Nations and the European settlers
were fighting a shooting war over the few salmon that remained. Just
like people, to fight eachother while the real culprit gains power.
> --
> The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
> Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
--
Russ Lyttle, PE
<http://www.flash.net/~lyttlec>
Not Powered by ActiveX
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