Linux-Advocacy Digest #414, Volume #30 Sat, 25 Nov 00 15:13:02 EST
Contents:
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: The Sixth Sense ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Of course, there is a down side... (mark)
Re: OT: Could someone explain C++ phobia in Linux? (Donovan Rebbechi)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! (The Ghost In The Machine)
Re: A Microsoft exodus! (Tore Lund)
Re: KDE2 (matt newell)
Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job? (Pete Goodwin)
Re: Linux=Stink*Stank*Stunk (matt newell)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:29:50 +0200
"Chris Ahlstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Tom Wilson wrote:
> >
> > BTW, Outlook Express has crashed twice this evening and I'm trying as
hard
> > as I can to keep off-color vernacular out of my MS related posts. <g>
>
> As a professional MCSE (morbidly cynical software engineer),
> I recommend you slick the disk and reinstall everything from
> scratch. Bring along a good book.
That is just the attidue that I hate when people talk about windows
instability.
I just came back from a very frustrated linux user who called me and started
cursing windows.
Why? His linux would refuse to run (he pull the plug on his system after the
system refused to respond to halt & reboot commands, and his file systems
are now accesible in read mode only, and only by root), he didn't have any
linux installation disks, but he did have a spare HD and a win98 cd.
It would be easier, he figured out, to just install windows, find out on the
web what the problem was, and fix it.
Win setup complained about a file missing, but kept installing.
On loading, windows complain about a vnetbios.vxd missing, and he couldn't
get windows to dial up.
He called me, asked for advice, I told him to search for the file in the
registery, search in the cab dir on win98 for the file, and extract to the
path.
Apperantly, it was too difficult for him, so he just format and reinstalled.
Same problem. (bad cd)
He called me, asking me to come over, and in the mean time, did it *again*.
I came to him and had to wait half an hour to the installation to be done
with, and then it took me five minutes to fix the problem.
Oh, and one reboot, because you'd to de-install & install TCP/IP
All in all, he wasted a day (multiply installation plus the applications he
installed on windows that would now have to be reinstalled) that could've
been solved in less than 5 minutes.
And that is a regular user of slackware 7.1
I excpected more from him than the average user.
Rant off, I'm having a bad day with linux & its users.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:46:57 +0200
"mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <8vnubl$4ujgg$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Ayende Rahien wrote:
> The interesting question is 'with linux, how many times has
> your /etc directory been rendered unusable?
Five times, two power failure related, one with the system hanging so I'd to
do a reset, one with 'rm -f', one when upgrading.
That is just my personal experiance, you know. And I don't deal with linux
extensively.
> The correct answer is probably never in the whole of the
> history of space and time for a production machine, but
> maybe if you look really hard, you might find one, somewhere,
> but it seems very very unlikely.
User & Admin mistakes, faulty programs, ignorance, power failures, hard
drive failures... the list is endless.
> The registry is well renowned as a major weakness in the design of
> windows.
It takes a *lot* to corrupt the registery, usually a hard drive failure.
Currupting the data *inside* the registry is another matter, and can cause
system instability, just like putting invalid data in the files in the /etc
dir.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:52:54 +0200
"mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> In article <8vmhss$50m41$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Ayende Rahien wrote:
> >
> >"Sigvaldi Eggertson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:8vmffj$crq$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> In article <8vlgh0$4tt57$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >> "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Most people in the world *don't* know english, therefor, they need an
> >> OS in
> >> > their own language, and they'll pay for it.
> >> >
> >> > Take a look at what happened when Iceland wanted windows in their own
> >> > language, btw.
> >> >
> >> We,here in Iceland, know English (at least some) but what happened was
> >> that we got Windows 98 in Icelandic a couple of years back.
> >
> >IIRC, there was a problem with that (it may be with win95, I'm not sure)
> >that MS didn't want to localize windows because large part of the
population
> >had a good control in english.
>
> The actions of a monopoly
No, the actions of a company whose interest is in profit.
It wasn't worth it to localize Windows, because most of the people could use
the english version.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Sixth Sense
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:04:17 +0200
"mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> It became market leader because it was given away by the monopoly
> with the monopoly OS. That's what monopolies do. I think that's
> also what the court found.
No, actually, the court found that even thought IE was bundled with Windows,
it didn't stop Netscape from competing.
It was that IE was a better browser that cause the shift.
I used primarily netscape during the 3.x versions, but when the 4s came into
play, Netscape was bloated, heavy, and buggy compare to IE. No to mention
that at the time I'd a couple of low-activity email boxes, to get mail from
them I had to restart netscape.
With IE, I could get all the mail from all those email boxes with no
trouble.
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Windoze 2000 - just as shitty as ever
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:05:27 +0200
"mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Therefore your claim that partition handling is a problem for
> storing registry information in a separate partition is
> specious.
>
>
> That's what I was saying. Hope that clarifies for you.
What exactly is it that you are propusing?
Another partition with a FS on it, or a raw partition?
I think we were talking about different things here.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mark)
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Of course, there is a down side...
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 19:06:58 +0000
In article <8vovn1$59l4v$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Ayende Rahien wrote:
>
>"mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
>
>> No. The RFC is the 'final' name. Before that they're called
>> something like 'draft-do-me-this-protocol', then they later
>> become rfc9876.txt once they're 'approved'.
>>
>> My question was _much_ more subtle than that. What is the
>> difference between a real rfc and an 'informational' one. I
>> suspect its related to IP ownership (ip = intellectual
>> property here). I don't want to know whether someone thinks
>> that the IETF may or may not do something, I want to know what
>> they actually do.
>>
>> I do know that the ITU used to prevent owned IP becoming standards,
>> but then relaxed that position about 6 years ago. I know about
>> this because I was a UN rapporteur for about 10 years. That
>> experience, amongst other things, has left me very suspicious
>> about words which apparently add no value appearing in titles.
>> In the standards arena, they usually mean something important,
>> otherwise the editor of the document would have removed them.
>
>Thanks for the info, but, as another poster pointed out, it's really a moot
>point, as this is not the important part of what you need to know in order
>to copy the way windows does it, this has
>already been figured out.
>
I still want to know what an 'Informational' rfc is. Does
anyone know?
Mark
>
>
>
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: OT: Could someone explain C++ phobia in Linux?
Date: 25 Nov 2000 19:33:47 GMT
On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 10:39:54 -0500, mlw wrote:
>> really? the best language to write algorithm in is pascal. It is
>> not C or C++ or Java actually.
>
>That is subjective.
...
>Where do you live? I live in eastern Massachusetts, along the 128 loop,
>all companies are looking for are good C++ guys. I have no problem
>remaining employed.
...
>> C++ is dying, the same as MFC and windows programming is dying. Why?
>> Becuase there are better things out there now to use.
>
>Depending on your application. You can not write a driver in Java. You
>can't write an OS in Perl. You can't write video processing applications
>without the vast majority being done in C/C++ or assembler.
>
>People have been saying that compiled languages are dying for 30 years.
>I see no real evidence of this.
...
One thing that stands out in this discussion is that most of the C++ bashers
make a lot of unsupported blanket statements that seem based more upon
prejudice than any kind of sound reasoning. Maybe they have some subconscious
association with Windows and C++ and think they are the same thing ("MFC and
Windows programming" are seen in the same sentence as "C++".) Nothing could be
further from the truth. C++ is an ANSI standard, while Java is proprietary.
The exception is Russ Lyttle, who has at least attempted to back up his
claims with supporting arguments.
--
Donovan Rebbechi * http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/ *
elflord at panix dot com
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 19:35:08 GMT
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote
on Wed, 22 Nov 2000 23:43:06 -0000
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>On Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:24:32 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Aaron R. Kulkis
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote
>>on Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:58:20 -0500
>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>>Nik Simpson wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "Aaron R. Kulkis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>>> > Nik Simpson wrote:
>>>> > >
>>>> > > "Donovan Rebbechi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>>>> > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>>> > > > On Sat, 18 Nov 2000 20:19:57 GMT, Chad Myers wrote:
>>>> > > >> Dos on the other hand is so spartan that it's barely usable (which is
>>>> why
>>>> > > > the vast majority of windows users stay away from it whenever
>>>> possible)
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Or if we are smart and come from a UNIX background we load things like
>>>> UWIN
>>>> > > and have a complete UNIX command line and ksh to play with.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > --
>>>> > > Nik Simpson
>>>> >
>>>> > It still sucks.
>>>>
>>>> Thankyou for such an incisive and well thought out response, it just what
>>>> we've come to expect from you.
>>>
>>>The DOS command line sucks, because it is poorly implemented.
>>>
>>>In contrast, the Unix command line interfaces are works of pure genius.
>>
>>Can you be more specific?
>>
>>I will note that the raw DOS command line sucks eggs (F3 to edit
>>a line??), but DOSKEY makes it more or less usable. There
>
> It can also break programs.
Admittedly, this is true, although I can't think of any specifics.
But I could see it breaking some games, especially those that
use the keyboard as a multibutton control panel (a lot of
games do, because it's there :-); DOOM, for instance, uses
the top row of number keys as weapons selectors, and Heretic,
Hexen, Unreal [Tournament] and Quake [I,II,III] followed suit;
I think Duke Nukem 3D does too, although I haven't played it
recently).
>
>>are presumably other command line editors as well, which shim
>>themselves between the current keyboard handler, and the input
>
> These quite often cause compatibility problems similar
> to what doskey can.
Well, they're more or less identically architectured, trapping
interrupt 0A (?). Anything that mucks with the interrupts can
break something else mucking with the interrupts... :-)
>
>>system reading the keystrokes.
>>
>>Also, older Unix tty drives/command lines don't have:
>>
>>- history
>>- file completion
>>- double TAB file/command listing
>>- arrow key editing (KSH did have VI-style editing, though).
>>
>>And most Unix command lines in olden times may have been limited to
>>single-character options prefixed with a '-'; '+' and '--'
>>were added later.
>>
>
> The germane qualifier here that distinguishes Unix from DOS
> is SUCCESSFULY. Unix was built with some intentional modularity
> to begin with. So it doesn't really matter which shell you use.
> Some game or application is not going to flake out on you just
> because you decided to use another interface.
True enough. One other good thing about Unix is that everyone got
used to the notion of '/' as a filename delimiter, and '-' as an option
indicator; every Unix more or less uses this, as does Linux.
Sadly, for whatever reason, DOS decided to use '\' as a filename
delimiter and '/' as an option indicator! Bizarre.
To be fair, VMS had '.' as a filename delimiter, within brackets
(e.g., DRA0:[PATH.TO.DIRECTORY]FILENAME.EXT;3), and Pr1me had
'>', the one time I got to look at one (and I do mean look;
I couldn't touch). I am given to understand Mac uses ':' as
a delimiter; Amiga uses ':' somewhat a la VMS, but otherwise
uses '/', with the strange notion that '/' at the head of a
pathname means "parent of current directory", not "root".
(Not sure I care for that.)
I don't know what CPM used, although it did have the notion
(not verified firsthand, admittedly) of "logging on" to a disk.
Presumably, this is vaguely similar to Unix's "mount".
(NT preserves this as well by allowing drive letters to be
associated with shares. Blecch.)
Apollo DOMAIN Aegis "improved" on Unix, by using '//' as a
network root and '/' as a local root; it was one of the most
transparent methods of network access I've seen in awhile, although
it was quite proprietary protocol-wise (I don't know if Apollo or
HP ever pubished it). I think NT, with its '\\' notion of
network root in SMB, tries to emulate that to some extent -- I'm
not sure how well, or even if they'd heard of Apollo.
(One thing Apollo did not allow is aliased shares; NT can share
a directory D:\blah\blah\silly on foobar-nt, and it will show
up on the network as \\foobar-nt\silly; dunno if foobar-nt
can access its own shares or not in this fashion. I also dunno
if NT can share two things both named 'silly', or if a share
can be named 'CON', 'PRN', 'AUX', or 'CLOCK$'. Hmmm....)
At least DOS wised up at some point and allowed '/' as a synonym
for '\' in most of the system calls. (So they band-aided a wart.
At least it looks slightly better now. :-) )
>
>--
> Finding an alternative should not be like seeking out the holy grail.
>
> That is the whole damn point of capitalism.
> |||
> / | \
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
up 74 days, 1:32, running Linux.
------------------------------
From: Tore Lund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.unix.advocacy
Subject: Re: A Microsoft exodus!
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:37:55 +0100
Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 15:10:19 +0100, Tore Lund wrote:
> >Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
> >>
>
> >Are they? Alternatives like jkl;
>
> Not much different to hjkl.
One finger = one cursor function. Not so with hjkl in standard touch.
> Also a reasonable choice, I guess. The only concern
> is this -- do all keyboards put ; in the same place ?
I mean the home keys of the right hand.
--
Tore
------------------------------
From: matt newell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: KDE2
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:42:26 -0800
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2000 17:14:58 +0200, James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> : : IMHO the Gnome team is now in serious catchup mode.
>
> Since it's your opinion, I'm sure you can back that up with a justification,
> RIGHT? Let's hear it.. KDE still looks very cartoony to me. If I want a
> cartoon, I'll go watch TV...
>
You are what I consider an idiot.
KDE2 has a very powerfull ability to use themes. Themes can make your system
look however you want. It even supports gtk themes so it can look just like
gnome if that is what you would like. You critisize KDE without even
exploring the options. What a shame.
Matt Newell
------------------------------
From: Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Anyone have to use (*GAG*) Windows on the job?
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 19:48:23 +0000
Donn Miller wrote:
> I've applied to a lot of nice jobs. Unfortunately, a lot of them
> involve using some form of Windows (NT, 98, 95). I definitely try to
> stay away from those kind of jobs, but depending on location, it's not
> always feasible. For example, Microsoft is always sticking their butts
> in this state (PA), offering all kinds of services to various businesses
> and universities in this state.
I've applied for jobs and I note my skills are very much in demand. Guess
what? I'm a Windows developer: I write GUI applications and develop Audio
Device Drivers.
> Linux takes a second seat to my favorite OS, which is FreeBSD. But,
> it's still worlds better than working with that piece of you know what!
If you like the fact that Linux doesn't always have drivers for hardware
then fine. Though Linux doesn't crash like Windows 95/98/ME does - the
desktop KDE2 certainly does!
> I figure that software engineers/developers have the best chance of
> choosing which OS they want to work with.
Funny, I noticed my choices were much wider for Windows. Who wants my
OpenVMS skills anymore? Or my UNIX skills?
> For example, as an engineer,
> you more or less have to use what they give you, and most of the time,
> it's NT or some other sh*t.
You've just contradicted yourself. You said earlier that software engineers
get the choice, now they don't? Unless you're referring to Electrical
Engineers?
> How many times have we seen this scenario:
> you are happily working at your workstation, which is running a nice OS,
> such as Solaris, BSD, or Linux. That fatassed, balding manager comes in
> and says "Alright, all the Suns, DECs, and PC Workstations running Linux
> are history! We're going to be running wonderful, state of the art,
> easy to use, user-friendly PC's running NT! Isn't that great?"
Never. I was using Windows inside Digital Equipment Corporation long before
it became popular with others.
After fooling around with the dinosaur that was MOTIF, Windows wasn't
brilliant (3.1 certainly wasn't) but when 95 appeared, it took on a life of
its own.
> Hell no, it isn't great. And I can name quite a few companies that have
> ditched their SPARCstations for PC's running NT. The reason, I'm told,
> is that a lot of software has been ported from unix to NT! Oh wow, and
> this is a good reason to switch? Yechhhh....
I think you're muddling up Windows 95/98/ME with Windows NT/2000. The
former is unstable, the latter isn't.
> Another reason I'm told that unix boxes are being replaced by Windows NT
> machines is that well, you really don't need unix unless you need
> ultra-high computational performance. Plus, Windows NT is so amazing
> with it's ultra-revolutionary clipboard. Check this out: you can copy
> data to the clipboard, you can go to another application, and you get to
> select which format you want to paste FROM, such as MS-Word, text,
> bitmap, etc. etc. Yes, someone did tell me this. Managers love this
> all important OLE feature MS operating systems offer.
Talk about over simplification. It's not the clipboard, per se, it's the
GUI. It's way ahead of anything on Linux (though KDE2 is pretty close).
Besides, OLE is an obsolete term. It's ActiveX nowadays.
> I had an interview recently, and the guy asked me which word processor I
> liked to use. I said that, in a nutshell, I think word processors
> suck. I told him I used html and LaTeX as a substitute. His eyes got
> all BIG and stuff, and he just sat there, frozen, smiling incrediously,
> with his eyes big as baseballs. You just knew what he was thinking:
> "WHAT??????!!!!! He doesn't use Microsoft Word?" And the worst part
> about it is, for most jobs, they look down on you if you refuse to use
> Word, as if using Microsoft Word is a prerequisite for computer
> literacy.
I think he probably thought "here's someone stuck in the stoneage".
> Yeah, I know, I'm going to get slammed for not being "open-minded".
> Screw that, though....
I think I'm slamming you for not keeping up with the times.
I would agree Microsoft Word is not a particularly good example (after
watching it crash and hang too many times) but even still it's not too bad
for simple stuff.
--
Pete, running KDE2 on Linux Mandrake 7.2
------------------------------
From: matt newell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux=Stink*Stank*Stunk
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 11:49:14 -0800
> John Travis wrote:
>
> > > Lol. If you aren't even bright enough to install LM7.2...you're going to
> > > have some real fun with Free (which I do like by the way :-).
>
> The thing I like most about "Free" is the Linux emulation. I like not
> having to boot from FreeBSD into Linux just to run a few Linux apps.
> It's pretty good emulation. I've run Linux RealPlayer (all versions) on
> both FreeBSD and Linux with no noticeable difference in performance.
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
>
The thing I like most about linux is that it runs linux programs nativly. No,
I'm not kidding, it actually runs them nativly. I don't have to reboot into
FreeBSD and have them emulated, I can just run them nativly. I have tried
every linux program on the planet and they work great. Of course linux can
emulate things too: Dos - Dosemu, Windows - Wine, PC - plex86... And many more
systems. By the way, Don't flame me because Wine isn't an emulator, I already
know this.
Matt Newell
------------------------------
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