Linux-Advocacy Digest #716, Volume #34 Tue, 22 May 01 23:13:02 EDT
Contents:
Re: Just when Linux starts getting good, Microsoft buries it in the dust! (Craig
Kelley)
Re: Linux takes Hollywood by storm! ("Paolo Ciambotti")
Re: Just when Linux starts getting good, Microsoft buries it in the dust! (Craig
Kelley)
Re: Linux dead on the desktop. ("Interconnect")
Re: Microsoft - WE DELETE YOU! (Craig Kelley)
Re: Linux dead on the desktop. ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: Linux dead on the desktop. ("Ayende Rahien")
Re: RIP the Linux desktop ("Matthew Gardiner")
Re: Linux dead on the desktop. ("Interconnect")
Re: Linux dead on the desktop. ("Interconnect")
Re: Linux beats Win2K (again) (Ed Allen)
Re: The nature of competition ("Matthew Gardiner")
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Just when Linux starts getting good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!
Date: 22 May 2001 20:49:06 -0600
John Wiltshire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Tue, 22 May 2001 14:09:25 -0400, "JS \\ PL"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >I even
> >liked the fact that it stayed connected to the Internet when switching users
> >(unlike Win2K)
>
> [snip]
>
> >Internet connection stays when switching users!
>
> Umm... This ability has been there since NT 3.51.
>
> Fire up your registry editor and add the following REG_SZ:
>
> HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\
> Winlogon\KeepRasConnection = 1
>
> (line broken for readability)
>
> Documentation has been there for a while if you cared to read it.
*Very* long time no see John. Hope everything is going well for you.
--
It won't be long before the CPU is a card in a slot on your ATX videoboard
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
From: "Paolo Ciambotti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux takes Hollywood by storm!
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:54:25 -0700
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Glitch"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I did read the article before I posted it. Does it sound like I didn't?
Sorry for any confusion; I was replying to Mart van de Wege's post, two
levels up from yours. And let me know what newsreader you're using so I
can avoid it. <grin>
------------------------------
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Just when Linux starts getting good, Microsoft buries it in the dust!
Date: 22 May 2001 20:50:01 -0600
"Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> "Craig Kelley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > "JS \\ PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >
> > > Internet connection stays when switching users!
> >
> > Wow. Welcome to Slackware 1.0.
>
> And NT 3.51.
>
> > > And get this - Applications even stay open and are there (still
> > > open) when returning to that user.
> >
> > And to GNOME 1.0.
>
> Really? How do you exit GNOME as one use, log on as another,
> then log back in as the first and have all apps still running?
Click the "save current setup" button on the logout dialog box.
--
It won't be long before the CPU is a card in a slot on your ATX videoboard
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
From: "Interconnect" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux dead on the desktop.
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:01:37 +1000
<snip>
> > Somehow, millions of people use Word very efficiently and demand
> > even more features from,
>
> Well, I question your premise. I think most Word users "get by".
> Anything resembling efficiency is purely by accident.
I'd have to agree that Word users are "getting by". Most people don't know
anything else for WP. The main advantage of Word to the *Millions* that use
it is the easily accessible formatting such as Bold , Underline, bullet
lists etc and the Print button.
I don't know of any average users using OLE, Macros and other more advanced
features.
> I also think it is MS that is asking for new features so they have
> something to sell to the PHB's. Word has quite enough features for
> actual users. I don't know a single user who is asking for more
> features (and the company I work for is standardized on Office). They
> would sure like some of the existing features to be fixed though.
> --
> -| Bob Hauck
> -| To Whom You Are Speaking
> -| http://www.haucks.org/
------------------------------
From: Craig Kelley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
alt.destroy.microsoft,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft - WE DELETE YOU!
Date: 22 May 2001 20:51:38 -0600
"Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> "Roberto Alsina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >"Michael Marion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > >news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >> Matthew Gardiner wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > If Microsoft wants to earn the same respect as the likes of NCR, UNISYS
> or
> > >> > Xerox, then maybe they should start porting IE to more than just Mac,
> > >> > Windows and a few obscure UNIX's.
> > >
> > >Yeah, you know, those "few obscure UNIX's" like Solaris, HP-UX,
> > >and Digital Unix.
> > >
> > >If those are obscure, what's your definition of common?
> >
> > Linux, FreeBSD. The number of people using web browsers on Linux is probably
> > ten times the number of people using web browsers in Solaris,
> > HP-UX and DU combined.
> >
> > The unix-like desktop market is so Linux+FreeBSD centric it's not even
> > funny.
>
> Solaris and HP-UX are hardly "obscure", though, regardles of which
> world you're living in.
So Chad, why doesn't Microsoft make IE for Linux? What are they
afraid of?
--
It won't be long before the CPU is a card in a slot on your ATX videoboard
Craig Kelley -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP block
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux dead on the desktop.
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 05:50:03 +0200
"Craig Kelley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > "Craig Kelley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > >
> > > Anyone who uses Linux as a replacement for Windows is asking for
> > > trouble. Use Linux because you like UNIX/Linux, not because you hate
> > > Microsoft; any other motive will result in disapointment (just like
> > > when I use Windows -- it never fails to disapoint me).
> > >
> > > I've been running 100% Linux for so long that I can't even figure out
> > > how to do many things inside Windows 2000. It literally took me an
> > > hour to figure out how to change the video driver (I couldn't
> > > right-click on the desktop to do it anymore). I'm sure others have
> > > similar problems going the other way and think that UNIX is
> > > problematic.
> >
> > Why couldn't you right click?
> >
> > Even if you didn't know anything, Control Panel > Add Hardware (also
lets
> > you replace drivers).
> > Or Control Panel > System > Hardware > Device Manager.
> > Or Start > Programs > Administrative Tools > Computer Management >
Device
> > Manager.
> > Or Right click the desktop > propeties > settings.
>
> I'd swear it didn't let me install a new video driver using that last
> method (it had the braindead-VGA-fresh-from-install driver
> installed). I'll double-check.
Full way to do this:
Right click the desktop > propeties > settings > advance > Adapter >
propeties > Driver > update driver
------------------------------
From: "Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux dead on the desktop.
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 05:52:16 +0200
"Craig Kelley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> "Chad Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > "Craig Kelley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >
> > > Oh puh-leeze. Perhaps if Windows came with any useful software I
> > > would consider using it; as it comes now it's simply a glorified
> > > typewriter until you spend hours updating and installing by hand.
> >
> > So which is it? If it comes with apps, then MS is an evil monopoly
> > trying to squish out all app vendors and competitors, if they
> > don't then they're just a glorified typewriter.
> >
> > Which is it?
>
> I didn't realize that Microsoft had been sued for including
> development tools, perl, an ssh daemon, low-latency remote access, a
> good shell, wget, a real editor (take your pick), etc. etc.
Sure it was, haven't you followed the trial.
------------------------------
From: "Matthew Gardiner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: RIP the Linux desktop
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:52:06 +1200
> > Well yeah, I suppose Windows is better for a desktop system aimed at the
> > end user. However, Linux and the other free unices offer, firstly, and
> > alternative to Windows. This is ignoring the desktop. Maybe certain
> > users don't care about what their desktop looks like? There's a
> > psychology involved here, because most Windows users have been
> > conditioned to believe that Windows is the ideal desktop, and that we
> > really need all those gadgets and conveniences.
>
> I'm always struck with the ubiquity of the claim by 'unix users' that
> 'windows users' are somehow conditioned into believing something, and that
> the connotation is one of brainwashing. I think a definition of 'end user'
> would help un-blur this pervasive assertion. If by user you're referring
to
> the computer using public at large, then recreational use must be
considered
> a segment. By recreational, I'm referring to the idea of the computer as
an
> appliance: not a way of life, not as a means to make a living. In this
> context, other factors come into play other than the desktop metaphor.
> 'Windows users' will mention applications and ease of use as prime factors
> for their use of windows. Granted, ease of use includes the fact that the
> vast majority of computers are purchased configured and ready to go with
> windows as the operating system, thereby relieving the user of that chore.
> Since this is not a marketing discussion ... The other factors include,
but
> are not limited to:
> * educational software: READ tools! -and - What applications your school
> uses to exchange data.
> * computer aided learning. This would include distance learning, computer
> based training, and so on.
> * support for the newest hardware gadgets. Consumers are gadget oriented,
> and want them yesterday.
> * compatibility with what family and peers are using.
> These are but a few examples, but they are important considerations for a
> computer consumer in the appliance sense I allude to above. If we're
talking
> CS major or computer enthusiast, then it's a different ballgame.
Most people I know do not continuously buy pieces of hardware. The biggest
purchase after a PC is either a scanner or a printer. A scanner so that
they can email pictures to their friends, and a printer, to well, you know,
print. The majority of people in New Zealand use normal film, hence, the
issue of whether a digital camera is supported is a non-issue. Also, we
don't have the gimpy AOL. ISP's use normal PAP/CHAP logins with no fancy
crap like AOL or Compuserve has. Zip drives are already supported, USB Mice
are also supported and many other generic devices are supported by Kernel
2.4. btw, most schools in NZ still use Acorns (Strong ARM model).
> >Unix is more terse, and
> >is founded on the belief that the quality and underlying infrastructure
> > are what's important. I've been using unix for 8 years, so my mind is
> > conditioned to the unix philosophy. I personally don't really find
> > Windows ME, for example, ia any better, easier, and convenient to use
> > than FreeBSD running XFree86 and Window Maker. Is there any reason to
> > prefer Windows over the latter setup I just described? No. Our
> > subconscious minds are programmed by our environment, and if your
> > environment consists of using Windows every day, you have this image of
> > what the ideal desktop should be.
>
> Unix was born in a scientific environment. Not everyone wants to play
> scientist. I don't have a need \ time to know how my appliances work.
> (embedded concepts aside!).
> You may not find WinME easier or more convenient to use than FreeBSD
running
> Xfree, but you're in a distinct minority in the universal set of computer
> users. Also, you're taking on an elitist mindset by surmising that windows
> users, simply because they see the same image everyday, assume that it is
> idyllic.
> I proffer that you and your imagined adversary aren't seeing the same
thing
> in the same way. Some simply see a machine that does their bidding. Some
are
> passionate about it to the point of excluding this common view from their
> reasoning. As with most things, the middle ground is usually the safest (=
Most users want to jump on their computer, get the work done, then go off
and do something more interesting. Then group of users (with in the "normal
users"), who, generally speaking are the majority, want to learn how to use
their PC better, thus they buy magazines and crap so that they can do neat
things on Word, Excel and Publisher for their School PTA fundraising. People
want to learn, as long as it isn't boring. They want it entertaining, and
exciting. That is the angle Linux should be aiming at. Making learning fun
and easy through interactive tutorials, multimedia presentations and videos.
> > What exactly is a "desktop", anyways? For me a desktop is the machine I
> > have sitting on my desk, churning out work. I find unix to be an
> > adequate desktop, because, I dunno, I can get all my work done with just
> > FreeBSD and Window Maker. Isn't that what counts? Windows and unix are
> > simply founded on differing cultures and philosophies. They are both
> > the way they are because of a certain mindset, which led to a differing
> > philosophy between the two.
>
> Logical. Why the need to convert the masses? I've never quite understood
it.
> It seems almost religious in nature. Like Frank Zappa sang "just shuttup
and
> play your guitar"
> <no offense intended>
Most people like me want to imform the public that there is an alternative
out there. However, there is a small minority that want to convert everyone
if they like it or not. I prefer the first one, peaceful co-existance.
> > So, the concept of "desktop" will differ between groups of people.
> > Myself, I honestly don't really find one more convenient than the other,
> > because I just adapt to the philosophy and way of thinking of the
> > operating system I'm using.
> >
> > Therefore, Linux (or FreeBSD, or any other unix) can't be losing on the
> > desktop, because there really isn't any objective definition of what a
> > desktop is. It's 100% subjective, so which one is "winning" or "losing"
> > depends on your personal concept of a desktop. The fact is that Windows
> > is turning over users to BSD and Linux, not the other way around, so it
> > is really Windows that is losing on the desktop. If people are leaving
> > Windows for unix systems, they must have the concept in their minds that
> > unix is a better desktop than Windows.
>
> Something is happening though. The classes for Unix at the local
university
> where I live are suffering marked declines in enrollment. Some aren't even
> making. Dot.com syndrome? I'm not sure, but the numbers don't lie.
Bachelor of Business Computing, Business Software Environment (Complete
module, 16 weeks), 2 weeks of MSDOS, 6 weeks of UNIX. UNIX is the main OS
being taught in Universities in New Zealand because that's what drives New
Zealand business's servers and ISP's.
> > But, if your definition of "desktop" is a Windows-alike, you're still
> > wrong, because KDE and GNOME are becoming more accessible to those
> > people who have a desktop concept in their minds similar to Windows.
> >
> > So, it all depends on what particular concept of "desktop" has been
> > programmed into your subconscious by your environment, beliefs, and
> > philosphies.
>
> I don't think it's really a concept for most people. They purchase a
> computer, learn to use it with a return based on time spent, and they move
> on about their daily lives. If you're in the industry, it's obviously
> different. If so, then learning as much as you can stand, about as much as
> you can is the day to day.
> I prefer Larry Wall's approach, though. I'm lazy to a fault, don't lack
> hubris, well, you get the point.
>
> So much of linux advocacy is either not advocacy in the true sense of the
> word, or is tantamount to preaching to the choir. Without your
'wintrolls',
> what on earth would you kibitz about?
Yes, I agree Linux needs more work, and yes, these issues are being
addressed. However, what must be said is that Linux is a co-operative effort
vs. Microsoft dictatorship which pisses many developers off since they get
no say in the direction of Windows.
Matthew Gardiner
------------------------------
From: "Interconnect" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Linux dead on the desktop.
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:10:03 +1000
Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:3b0aedf3$0$2601$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Interconnect" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:9eeno1$q9l$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > Chad Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > news:3b0aa7f7$0$2604$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > >
> > > "Ayende Rahien" <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> > > news:9ee7sc$f9s$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > > > http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/opinions/3387/1/
> > > >
> > > > I can't say I don't agree.
> > > >
> > > > Some points:
> > > > A> The linux desktop company he's talking about is likely Mandrake.
> > > > B> He agrees with Daniel about users getting computer/OSes/shells
not
> > for
> > > > the sake of the computer/OS/Shell, but for the applications that it
run.
> > > > C> He seems to agree with me that you can't offer a slightly-less or
> > equal
> > > > product in order to convice people to switch, you need something
vastly
> > > > sueprior.
> > >
> > > Not to mention new innovation. Everything that was out there for
> > > Linux was either a rehashed 30-year old app with a new GUI
> > > front end, or a cheap knock-off of a current Microsoft app.
> > >
> > > -c
> >
> > Just because you suddenly become *aware* of an application via MS does
not
> > mean it did not exist before.
>
> You mean an antiquated fraction-of-the-features version which could
> loosely be called a similar app? I laugh when you guys talk about
> IE being a knock-off of spyglass. What a joke!
>
> -c
>
How many *original* ideas has Microsoft given to the computer world?
------------------------------
From: "Interconnect" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Linux dead on the desktop.
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:11:27 +1000
Ayende Rahien <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9ef73p$n7v$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>
> "Terry Porter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> > On Tue, 22 May 2001 20:32:54 +0200,
> > Ayende Rahien <don'[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/opinions/3387/1/
> > >
> > > I can't say I don't agree.
> > >
> > > Some points:
> > > A> The linux desktop company he's talking about is likely Mandrake.
> > > B> He agrees with Daniel about users getting computer/OSes/shells not
> for
> > > the sake of the computer/OS/Shell, but for the applications that it
run.
> > This is an old retort, and you can't neatly seperate them imho.
> >
> > For instance, the OS plays a big part in what aplications you CAN run.
If
> > I want to run GUI apps *remotely*, MS cant help me.
>
> Sure it can.
> Terminal Server will do it just fine.
Sorry Terminal Server won't run ALL MS apps.
------------------------------
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Linux beats Win2K (again)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ed Allen)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 03:01:05 GMT
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Pete Goodwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
>
>> Since writing 3D sound drivers is what you do, Linux not having
>> drivers is partly your fault.
>
>There's no interest in the market. There are not enough applications or
>games to require it.
>
Then why do you bitch about them not existing ?
You should be bitching about the potential sales not being large
enough. That would be reversing cause and effect but would be
closer to the mark.
You might even view that as an opportunity to write a driver which
would put you in the catbird seat to make deals with the hardware
manufacturers to customize versions for their hardware.
If you don't try to make billions you should be able to have a
growing business out of it.
In other words "you have it backwards" no demand can exist for what
you are not offering to sell. Only a monopoly can know in advance
what will be bought and for how much.
--
Microsoft Motto: Illegal we do immediately.
Unconstitutional takes a little longer.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Linux -- The Unix defragmentation tool.
------------------------------
From: "Matthew Gardiner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The nature of competition
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:02:03 +1200
Surprise, surprise, all of them run a veriant of UNIX. I wonder why? Chad,
maybe you could answer that question.
Matthew Gardiner
"Edward Rosten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:9edm6r$gkf$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> >> >> TPC is just a benchmark, not a real world measure. In the real
> >> >> world, it is Linux, not Win2K that shows up at the top end of
> >> >> acalibility and price/performance.
> >> >
> >> > Then why aren't we seeing any real world measurements?
> >>
> >> But we have. Linux is used at the top end of scalibility, where
> >> price/performance is really critical, since the costs are so high, ie
> >> supercomputers. There are several Linux machines in the top500, there
> >> are no Win2K or NT amchines in the top 500. A real supercomputer in
> >> real use is the real world. A benchmark setup is not.
> >
> > My understanding is that all of those "supercomputers" are "in
> > development", and not being used in the real world. The ones that are,
> > are clusters, not single machines.
>
> No, thewre are some real ones being used now. Check out the list at
> www.top500.org
>
> Yes, it is true, the computers are clustered in a tightly coupled network
> (by clusetering standards), but it still rates as a supercomputer.
> Besides, one measure of scalibility is the ability to cluster. In this
> area, Linux thrashes Win2K. If Win2K was so much better, we'd see Win2K
> clusters in the top500. We don't; we see Linux ones instead.
>
>
>
>
> >> >> >> Linux has been proven to be more stable.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > It has? How? I've seen no verifiable studies that show Linux's
> >> >> > uptime to be greater than anything else.
> >> >>
> >> >> 120 day MTTF, *with* nightly reboots.
> >> >
> >> > Really? There's Linux uptime studies that show this? Or did you
> >> > forget the question?
> >>
> >> Linux's uptime isn't at the top end (Only OS/390 and VM are with a
> >> guarnteed uptime of 35 years), but I'd wager that Linux can beat 120
> >> days with nightly reboots (ie Win2K's verified MTTF).
> >
> > Again, how come there are no studies?
>
> Who's going to pay?
>
>
> --
> (You can't go wrong with psycho-rats.)
(u98ejr)(@)(ecs.ox)(.ac.uk)
>
> /d{def}def/f{/Times-Roman findfont s scalefont setfont}d/s{10}d/r{roll}d f
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> r 230 350 moveto 0 1 179{2 1 r dup show 2 1 r 88 rotate 4 mul 0
rmoveto}for/s{15
> }d f/t{240 420 moveto 0 1 3 {4 2 1 r sub -1 r show}for showpage}d pop t
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