I suspect my Artusi and Frescobaldi quotes disappeared in the crash of Mac last August, but it seems the Werckmeisrter quote survived:
"..... The irony of mentioning Werckmeister's temperaments of 1691, is that in his 'Paradoxal-Discourse" published posthumously in 1707, his final words on temperament included the following: "It is more than a century ago that a common mistake was made by musicians regarding temperament because they held onto the notion and kept thinking that all 3rds had to be pure and all 5ths should be out of tune by 1/4 of a comma: this error had taken root so strongly that some would even have sacrificed their life to support it. It is, however, an eternal untruth which can be proven expressly to be false by using a monochord, the 'circle of fifths,' arithmetic, and then finally by using your hearing. For if all 5ths are out-of-tune by 1/4 of a comma, then, when you go through the circle of 5ths, the final one will have come down too far by more than 2 commas. And just the same way that these mystics talk: "5ths that are out of tune by 1/4 of a comma are being forced to carry a great burden while the 3rds are thought to be pure for this reason" so it is that many Christians, until now, have placed too much emphasis on the Spirit of Christ who is being imagined as the numbers 2 and 3 or the allegorical 5th and by insisting upon having the latter remain unchanged in their natural state in which they are thought to be pure enough - by thinking this way many Christians have damaged the sanctity of Christ and, at the same time, have made him become a sinner. And how musicians who are unable to recognize their mistake and are themselves groping about in the dark and for this reason are incapable of progressing further in their harmonic modulations and are thus forced to stay within the limits of the general type of diatonic scale: And this is also the way it was with the theologians who were clouded by their own dogmatic statements and anyone who wanted to make some headway and was inspired by God to find further explanations and wanted to publicize these things would be treated as a heretic and might even have been condemned to death by fire - So it is that they have recognized both types of thirds, the major and the minor (also the 6ths) to have that which is human and natural to be without shortcomings and blameless, yet, in contrast, they have placed upon that which is divine and perfect a burden and their own sin and impurity and have thereby always made Christ into a sinner. This happened unknowingly, however, because they have constructed their beliefs only upon the teachings and statutes created by human beings and have not called upon God's spirit for enlightenment. This is the error which is still unknowingly being cultivated by them secretly. I bring this up not to assert this as one of the principles and fundamental rules of music, but rather simply to point out how music is always a companion to theology and how the quality of theology is dependent upon us for the state of its purity; likewise, music also tends to be in the same condition, and just as the manner in which matters are governed, so will the state of music be also just as Plato has confirmed this. Let us move on now and recognize that when the temperament is set up in such a manner that all 5ths will beat [schweben] at 1/12 comma, the major 3rds at 2/3 of a comma and the minor 3rds at 3/4 of a comma, and that a person with an ear for accuracy will know how to accomplish this and tune accordingly, then, certainly, there will be a well-tempered harmony going through the entire circle of 5ths and through all keys/tonalities. This can then serve as an example as to how all well-tempered human beings will be able to live and rejoice with God in an everlasting, continually the same and eternal, harmony. For God is the diapason, in him we actively live and exist. In an earlier chapter we learned how, for bringing about the continuation of harmony, the entire scale of consonances and dissonances are developed out of the proportion: the double 1 and 2 [or the duplication of 1 to make 2?] which is called the octave and the diapason. It was explained how everything is contained within this most perfect of consonances which leads to the further reproduction of the other octaves: Thus it is that, in God and his eternal Word, Jesus Christ, everything is contained and has its source and being from the same, for everything that is made is made by the word (John 1:3.) And through his Word everything that still happens in this world is still maintained and kept alive in good harmony." After confessing a 'secret' to his readers,Werckmeister praises Neidhardt's Equal Temperament reformation in the following terms: "In this regard some readers will probably be astonished that I give as an example here a temperament where all 5ths are at 1/12 of a comma, the major 3rds at 2/3 and the minor 3rds at 3/4 of a comma, and that, as a result, all consonances [consonant invervals] (within themselves, each one as a group) have the same amount of beating - these are beats which I did not expressly present in my book on the monochord - to these astonished readers I give the following answer that I when I saw the 'disc' created by Sigmund Theophil (Gottlieb) Staden [1607-1655] 30 years ago as presented in Georg Philipp Harsdörffer's [1607-1658] "Philosophische Erqvickstunden", I had already thought about this temperament and have used this as a reason to investigate the faulty temperament which contended that all 5ths were beating at a 1/4 comma and which required that the 3rds be pure; and since, by means of God's help, I was the first to uncover this incorrectness, I proceeded to improve it somewhat (by making the gruesome dissonances a bit more pleasant to listen to), in particular the B and the D# which were beating greater than at 2 commas, and by giving the best clean/pleasant sound to the category/type known as the diatonic scale; all of this I did for the very important reason that very few organists were able to play their chorales with their so-called semitones or 'artificially created' modes; since I had now allowed the 3rds in the diatonic scale to beat approximately 1/2 or 2/3 of a comma - O, how several ignorant people persecuted me and how I had to suffer when I published the first report regarding this temperament in my "Musical Memorial" pp. 35 and 36 and in other published works in which I made the first recommendation on how all consonant intervals can have rather mechanically the same amount of beating (each compared within its own category of interval) as, for instance, that all 5ths will beat narrow by only 1/12 of a comma, etc.; and that I tried out this method of tuning in theory on my monochord and in practice and found it to be a good method, for how could I have known otherwise or written that the major 3rds should beat at 2/3 of a comma and the minor 3rds at 3/4 of a comma - and so it is that I simply can not avoid any longer to keep this a secret, especially since God has awakened other honest/upright people to recognize this temperament as being the correct one and are bringing it to light and having it published openly, just as in this matter particularly Mr. Johann Georg Neidhardt [1685-1739], a student of theology, has commendably demonstrated and has very clearly illustrated the method involved. Using the monochord which I have described, this temperament, if the monochord were longer than it is, could be easily produced mechanically on it because the commas which are already marked specifically on it as being separated into 3 or 4 parts, could be separated into 12 parts as well, since you normally proceed from one pure 5th to another and take away 1/12 of a comma the same as you would with 1/4s and accordingly you could determine just how much the 3rds, 6ths, and 4ths should be beating, the beating of which will be tolerable in each case since no 3rd will be beating a full comma, just as has been explained above. I should also have had this temperament marked clearly with the 12 parts of a comma, but because the engraver kept complaining (he had still not reached a stage of perfection in his abilities) to engrave properly the narrow spaces of a comma into 12 parts, I simply had to accept his work as is, for my entire monochord is 2 feet long and covers the range from a low C to a very high C (five octaves.) Since the older generation were able to tolerate in their notes B, D#, etc. an awful-sounding 'wolf,' I decided only to cripple it a bit at first so that it would not be raging about terribly so that I could repair the damage which it had formerly caused. However, in this most serious (principal) matter, I would have had to add such a strong beating to all the 3rds of the diatonic type as would have to be necessary in the 1/12th comma division, and then I would indeed have been torn to shreds by the 'wolves' of ignoramuses. This is the reason why it is difficult to quickly and completely eradicate an error/mistake and I do certainly desire that my work will be affirmed by other honest/upright people. Nevertheless I am slightly inclined towards and will continue thinking that the diatonic 3rds ought to be left a bit purer (they should not beat as fast as) than the other kind of 3rds which are not used as much. This will also provide for a good variation/change and these can be tolerated as the ones contained in my listing of temperaments in my book about the monochord, but not everyone knows how to make them become listenable. Since, however, Faber Stapul.and Glareanus thought that 3rds tempered by one whole comma of the diatonic type were too large/wide in order to give a good and pleasant sound to the ear, so I can also be excused when I allow a few 3rds like C#, F(#), G# etc. (which are 3rds that are rarely used) to beat wide by one comma or only 3/4 comma, so that those which do occur frequently might always remain more pleasant sounding. You should not take an old building which still has solid columns and tear it all down suddenly. I thank God that I have discovered the general, wide-spread error that was believed by almost everyone that on a keyboard instrument all 5ths should be tuned narrow by 1 comma and all 3rds must be tuned pure - which, basically, is entirely wrong and very misleading." 'Hierbey werden sich wohl einige verwundern / daß ich allhier eine 'Temperatur,' da alle 'quinten 1/12 Commatis,' die 'Tertiae maj; 2/3' die 'min: 3/4' und also alle 'Consonantien' in gleicher Schwebung stehen / 'statuire,' welche ich doch nicht ausdrücklich in meinem 'Monochordo' vorgestellet; darauf gebe zur Antwort / daß ich schon vor 30. Jahren / als ich die Scheibe des 'Theophili' Staden / aus des Harßdorffers 'Philos.' Erqvickstunden gesehen / schon auf diese 'Temperatur,' da man vorgegeben daß alle 'Quinten, 1/4 Comma' schweben / und die 'Tertien maj.' rein sein müsten / zu untersuchen / da ich dann durch Gottes Hülfe / diese Unrichtigkeit zum ersten entdecket; Und habe die gar grausamen 'Dissonantien,' sonderlich im 'H.' und dis / welche über 2. Commata schwebeten / ein wenig gelinder / und habe dem 'generi Diatonico,' die meiste Reinigkeit noch überlaßen / aus denen erheblichen Uhrsachen / weil sehr wenig Organisten aus denen so genannten 'Semitoniis' oder 'Modis fictis' ihre Lieder 'tractiren' können: da ich nun die 'Tertien' in dem 'genere Diatonico' etwa 1/2 oder 2/3 'Commatis' nachschweben laßen / Ey was haben mich etliche 'Ignoranten' verfolget / wie habe ich leiden müssen / da ich aber in meinem 'musicali'schen 'Memorial pag. 35.36.' und andern meinen Schrifften von dieser 'Temperatur' Meldung / und den ersten Vorschlag gethan / wie alle 'Consonantien' in gleicher Schwebung 'mechanicè' stehen könten / und allen 'Quinten' nur 1/12 'Commatis,' u. s. w. könte abgenommen werden / ich auch diese Stimmung / in 'Theoria' auf meinen 'Monochordo' und in 'Praxi,' versucht und gut befunden / denn wie hätte ich sonst wißen / und schreiben können / daß die 'Tert. maj' 2/3 und die 'minores 3/4 Comm.' schweben müsten / so kan ich nicht umhin / die Wahrheit länger zuverhelen / insonderheit / da Gott nun noch andere rechtschaffne Leute erwekket / die diese 'Temperatur' vor richtig erkennen / und dieselbe an den Tag / und öffentlich in den Druck gehen laßen / wie hierinnen insonderheit Herr Joh. Georg Neidhardt 'S.S. Theolog: Studiosus,' sich löblich erzeiget / und den 'Proces' gantz deutlich vorgestellet hat. Auf meinem heraus gegebenen 'Monochordo' könte dieselbe 'Temperatur' wenn es länger ware / auch gar leichte 'mechanicè' aufgetragen werden / denn die darauf schon aufgerissenen 'Commata,' die da in 3. oder 4. Theil getheilet sind / könten in 12. Theil getheilet werden / da man immer von einer reinen 'Quinta' zur andern 1/12theil eines 'Commatis,' wie mit den Viertheln geschehen / abnehmen könte / darnach könte man auch erfahren / wie viel die 'Tertien, Sexten, Quarten schweben. Welche dann alle gantz erleidlich seyn werden / da keine 'Tertia' ein gantz 'Comma,' sondern wie oben erwehnet / schweben wird. Ich hätte auch solche 'Temperatur' durch die 12. Theile 'Commatis' laßen aufreißen / weil aber der Kupfferstecher sich beschwerete (und derselbe auch nicht recht 'perfectioniret' war) die engen 'Spatia' der 'Commatum' in 12. Theile zutheilen / muste ich daßelbe anstehen laßen. Denn mein gantzes 'Monochordum' ist von C. biß [tiny 'c' with 3 horizontal lines above it] nur 2 Fuß lang. Da nun die Alten in ihrem 'H.' und dis ' den greulichen Wolf erdulden können / habe ich nur vor erst denselben ein wenig gelähmet / daß er nicht so grausam gewütet / und nun mehro der Schade eher zuersetzen stehet / als welchen er vorhero veruhrsachete. 'Sed omne principium grave,' hätte ich also bald allen 'Tertien' im 'genere Diatonico' ihre Schwebung so starck gegeben /wie in der 12theiligen Eintheilung der 'Commatum' geschehen muß/ so wäre ich von den Wölffen der 'Ignoranz' gar zerrißen worden. Darum ist es schwer / einen Irrthum also bald / und auf einmahl aus zu tilgen / und ist mir lieb / daß ich von rechtschaffenen Leuten 'secundiret' werde. Indeßen bin ich doch nicht ungeneigt / und bleibe dabey / daß man die 'diatoni'schen 'Tertien' etwas reiner laße / als die andern so man selten gebrauchet / es giebet auch gute Veränderung / und sind die in meinen 'Monochordo' enthaltene 'Temperaturen' zu erdulden / aber ein jeder weiß sie nicht ins Gehör zubringen. Denn da der 'Faber Stapul:' und 'Glareanus' die ordinaren 'Tertien' welchen ein 'Comma in genere Diatonico' zu groß waren /vor gut und angenehm in dem Gehör gehalten / so werde ich ja auch entschuldiget seyn können / wenn ich etlicher 'Tertien' als 'cis,' und f. 'gis,' und 'c [single horizontal line above it] Welche doch gar selten / selten gebrauchet werden / ein 'Comma' oder nur 3/4 'Commat:' über sich schweben laßen / damit dieselben / welche stets vorkommen / desto angenehmer bleiben möchten. Man kan ein altes Gebäu / welches noch feste Säulen hat / nicht auf einmahl über einen hauffen stoßen. Ich dancke Gott / daß ich den allgemeinen grossen Irrthum gefunden / da fast alle Welt dafür gehalten / daß alle 'Quinten' im Clavier / ein 'Comma' herunter schweben / und alle 'Tertien' rein seyn müsten / welches doch im Grunde falsch / und gantz unrichtig / und verführisch ist.' RT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "lutenet" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 5:10 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Mean tone temperament > > On Sat, 25 Mar 2006, Roman Turovsky wrote: > >> Anyway, Frescobaldi PETITIONED Vatican for an ET organ. And that's >> Standard >> Scholarship. > > And then, if we forget for a while your claims about Monteverdi using ET, > could you repeat the words Frescobaldi used when he "petitioned" something > for the Vatican organ? And it would really be interesting to be able to > read the "Standard Scholarship" statement on this matter! And who is the > scholar, who claims GF using ET? I do know that for example Stravinsky > believed they longed for - and even used - ET already in the 16th > century, but I really do not consider IS having been a scholar... > > Arto > > PS Dear Roman, perhaps early and middle baroque are not in the center > of your knowledge and interest... ;-) > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
