"David Tayler" <vidan...@sbcglobal.net> schrieb: > Have you looked at the Principes de musique of Monteclair, because > that I think is one of the most important sources for ornamentation > practice,
There's certainly no argument about the importance of Montéclair's book. 1736 is a bit late, though, regarding composers of Mesangeau's generation (1638), don't you think? > and then the airs avec doubles of Lambert for the brouderie > style you can feather in. That was a bit too colloquial for me, I'm afaid. What is brouderie, and what does feather in mean? And how do airs de court by Michel Lambert (several volumes 1660-1710), father-in-law to Lully, elucidate, and relate to, ornaments in French baroque lute music (with French lute composers trying to differ from contemporary mainstream music-making as much as they could)? Mathias > the 17th centurtyairs avec doubles of Lambert At 02:16 AM 1/28/2009, > you wrote: > > "David Tayler" <vidan...@sbcglobal.net> schrieb: > > Without wishing to go too far down this path, modern performance > > practice does not really reflect the historical sources for trills > > and other ornamnents. The appogiatura was as long or longer than > the > > main note, and they had 23 or so "basic" types of agreements, > Didn't know the exact number (or is that an estimated number like > 3.785?), thanks! I know ornament tables by Rameau or Couperin, but > would > you say that applied, say, a hundred years earlier, too, like with > Mesangeau, Gaultier, Bocquet? > > As opposed to 30 years ago, the source material is now readily > > available--even online--and the situation is starting to change, > > which creates lots of nice opportunities. > So let's turn to a live object. I'm currently practising an > allemande in > A minor by Bocquet (Oeuvres des Bocquet, CNRS edition, piece # 8, p. > 77 > = Vm7 6214, fol.6v-7). If that is available to you, what do say > about > the execution of the ornaments? > Mathias > > > > tablatures for d-minor tuning in the CNRS Bocquet volume > are by a Mlle. > > > > Bocquet. Apparently, Monique Rollin did not have a single > shred of > > > > evidence that this music was by one of the two lute-playing > Mlles. > > > > Bocquet. The attribution was entirely speculative. One > wishes it > > > > were so, but it is not. > > > > > >It was for want of any other suitable candidate. There's merely > the name > > >Bocquet, mentioned without given name, in tablatures of the 2nd > half of > > >the 17th century. Rollin says at the very beginning of her > introduction > > >(op. cit., p. xxiii-xxvi) that one cannot be sure. So, it remains > her > > >suggestion, and may I add, quite a convincing one IMO. The > material she > > >offers, and her arguments, possibly qualify as a bit more than a > shred. > > >Not of evidence, to be sure, but of plausibility. > > > > > > > See the review by Henry L. Schmidt in Notes, > > > > Vol. 29, No. 4 (June, 1973) pp. 784-786. > > > > > >I don't have access to that review (it's not available at our > local > > >university library), unfortunately. Would you mind to give an > abstract > > >or something to that effect? > > > > > >Mathias > > > > > Dear Collected Wisdom, > > > > > > > > > > in several threads, Stewart, David Tayler, Jorge, et al > nicely sorted > > > > > out this topic (Re: French Style, and Re: A very basic > question), > > > > > concluding that a trill consists of appogiatura (coule), > which is > > > > > necessary, trill (tremblement), which is desirable, and > termination > > > > > (cadence) in special cases. > > > > > > > > > > However, the comma (curved line right to the letter) is > without > > > > further > > > > > elaboration explained as simple trill in the CNRS edition > of Bocquet > > > > > (Monique Rollin, Corpus des luthistes franc,ais, Oeuvres > des Bocquet, > > > > > 1972, p. xxxiii), i. e. without appogiatura. And it makes > sense with > > > > the > > > > > music by Mlle. Bocquet. > > > > > > > > > > Could it be that appogiatura is not as essential to the > French trill > > > > as > > > > > it previously may have seemed? > > > > > -- > > > > > Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
