Thank you for all your responses!
Sorry I didn't write clearly.
I know of three versions which were kindly given to me by David van Oijen:
- Siena Manuscript
- Intabolatura di Liuto di M. Francesco da Milano [...] Libro Terzo, Gardano
1562
- Theatrum Musicum - Petrus Phalesius, Antuerpiensi 1571
All these versions have the opening motif with a rhythm being
"semibreve-minima-minima"
I think it is strange to have an alternation of the motif as soon as in the
first imitation and I was thinking of any reason of notation / printing
problems.
But my theory also seems not to be very convincing because they could have
started the first imitation on an "upbeat" if they want to use bar lines.
On his CD of 2008 Hopkinson Smith plays the version written in Siena,
Gardano and Phalese.
It is very interesting, Jean-Marie, to know about this english version with
"corrected" opening motif.
If there are any other versions or theories - it would also be interesting
to know about that.
Thanks to all,
Susanne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>
To: "Peter Martin" <peter.l...@gmail.com>; "Lute list"
<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 3:49 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Fine, Peter, but 34 is another story altogether, isn't it ? "La Compagna",
perfect, but not "La Sosia" ;-). The contrapuntal oprtions in the
introductory motive are slightly, but significantly different. It seems
impossible to me to adopt the same rhythmical symetry (semibreve, quarter,
quarter) in the introduction and its answer in 33; I feel that Arthur's
option, comforted by the English version in Cambridge Add Ms 3056, is more
satisfactory and preserves the coherence in the imitation. But of course,
that's only my twopence... :-)
Among the recordings I could put my hands on, Paul O'Dette, Chris Wilson,
Anthony Bailes, Massimo Lonardi, Hopkinson Smith share this opinion and all
choose to play the "rectified" version (3 semi breves at the opening),
perhaps it is not just a hasard ?
Best,
Jean-Marie
=================================
== En réponse au message du 24-11-2010, 14:25:10 ==
We should look also at the next piece in the Siena manuscript, La
Compagna, which opens with the same theme and rhythm, suggesting that
number 33 was written as intended, and doesn't need to be changed.
That's what I play...... :)
P
On 24 November 2010 12:56, Jean-Marie Poirier
<[1]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
True, Peter. The Siena doesn't use the same rhythm in the answering
statement. Arthur Ness gives the exact Siena version in tab and his
transcription suggests a change to make both opening statements
rhythmically identical. Moreover there is a version of this very
Ricercar in an English manuscript, Cambridge Univ. Library, Add. Ms
3056, which changes the Siena version to make both statement
conform, like Arthur suggested in his transcription. That's what I
play, and it would be interesting to have Arthur's opinion on
that...
All the best,
Jean-Marie
=================================
== En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 13:21:18 ==
>
> Looking at this piece in the Siena manuscript, the rhythm for the
> opening statement is not the same as in the answering statements.
So
> there's certainly room for doubt.
>
> I think the opening statement may have been 'corrected' in the Ness
> edition (I don't have it here to check). However, since several
> different rhythms are used for this motif, changing one of them
doesn't
> make the counterpoint any more uniform. Let it stand, and enjoy
the
> diversity!
>
> P
> On 24 November 2010 10:33, Jean-Marie Poirier
> <[1][2]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> Same argument ! Listen to the counterpoint...
> Best,
> JM
> =================================
> == En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 11:27:59 ==
>
> >
> >
> >
> >correction: Sorry, I meant the values of the second and third note
of
> the
> >first motif respectively the first bar in general...
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Susanne Herre" <[2][3]mandolinens...@web.de>
> >To: "Lute List" <[3][4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> >Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:49 AM
> >Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
> >
> >
>
> >> Dear lute lovers,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da
Milano
> -
> >> Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note of
the
> >> first motif?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like
this:
> >> Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried
to
> print
> >> it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print
only
> an
> >> upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to a
> very
> >> common pattern so the motif could now fit into one bar.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Could that be possible? Maybe that happened with other pieces
as
> well?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Or maybe Francesco "had to" compose it like this because no
piece
> like
> >> a fantasia or ricercar would start with an upbeat?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Susanne
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >>
> >> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >> [4][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
>
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> ========================================
>
> --
> Peter Martin
> 24 The Mount St Georges
> Second Avenue
> Newcastle under Lyme
> ST5 8RB
> tel: 0044 (0)1782 662089
> mob: 0044 (0)7971 232614
> [5][6]peter.l...@gmail.com
>
> --
>
>References
>
> 1. mailto:[7]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
> 2. mailto:[8]mandolinens...@web.de
> 3. mailto:[9]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 4. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 5. mailto:[11]peter.l...@gmail.com
>
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========================================
--
Peter Martin
24 The Mount St Georges
Second Avenue
Newcastle under Lyme
ST5 8RB
tel: 0044 (0)1782 662089
mob: 0044 (0)7971 232614
[12]peter.l...@gmail.com
--
References
1. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
2. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
3. mailto:mandolinens...@web.de
4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
6. mailto:peter.l...@gmail.com
7. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
8. mailto:mandolinens...@web.de
9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
11. mailto:peter.l...@gmail.com
12. mailto:peter.l...@gmail.com
========================================
