Dear David,
Interesting points I never heard of before.
In which way do the mss sources support your opinion of the "fermata" of the
first note?
What evidence do we have to play graces in pieces by Francesco?
Why is it possible that the first statement is not a real statement?
Best wishes,
Susanne
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Tayler" <vidan...@sbcglobal.net>
To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 7:30 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
There are several issues here.
The first is that the opening note may be said to have an implied
coronoa, or fermata in the historical sense, creating a time free
zone (TFZ) which may be played longer or shorter, or with graces
appropriate to beginning a piece.
The mss sources support this. In this respect, the first note is like
the last note.
Second is that, similar to a "tonal" imitative answer there is a
"rhythmic" imitative answer: in both cases the "answer" may be
different than the opening statement. NB The first statement is not
always the "real" statement
It is tempting to correct No 33 according to No 34, but that makes
two assumptions, one, that the first note is not qualitatively
different in some respect, and, second, that there is some sort of
urtext, e.g. the comopser's intent.
The idea of an urtext has been largely discredited--the main reason
is that the sources do not support it. Even Bach's cello suites do
not have an urtext.
Nonetheless, the two make a great pair of pieces, and I for one am
grateful that there are different versions of these and other pieces.
dt
At 05:23 AM 11/24/2010, you wrote:
We should look also at the next piece in the Siena manuscript, La
Compagna, which opens with the same theme and rhythm, suggesting that
number 33 was written as intended, and doesn't need to be changed.
That's what I play...... :)
P
On 24 November 2010 12:56, Jean-Marie Poirier
<[1]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
True, Peter. The Siena doesn't use the same rhythm in the answering
statement. Arthur Ness gives the exact Siena version in tab and his
transcription suggests a change to make both opening statements
rhythmically identical. Moreover there is a version of this very
Ricercar in an English manuscript, Cambridge Univ. Library, Add. Ms
3056, which changes the Siena version to make both statement
conform, like Arthur suggested in his transcription. That's what I
play, and it would be interesting to have Arthur's opinion on
that...
All the best,
Jean-Marie
=================================
== En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 13:21:18 ==
>
> Looking at this piece in the Siena manuscript, the rhythm for the
> opening statement is not the same as in the answering statements.
So
> there's certainly room for doubt.
>
> I think the opening statement may have been 'corrected' in the
Ness
> edition (I don't have it here to check). However, since several
> different rhythms are used for this motif, changing one of them
doesn't
> make the counterpoint any more uniform. Let it stand, and enjoy
the
> diversity!
>
> P
> On 24 November 2010 10:33, Jean-Marie Poirier
> <[1][2]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> Same argument ! Listen to the counterpoint...
> Best,
> JM
> =================================
> == En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 11:27:59 ==
>
> >
> >
> >
> >correction: Sorry, I meant the values of the second and third
note
of
> the
> >first motif respectively the first bar in general...
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Susanne Herre" <[2][3]mandolinens...@web.de>
> >To: "Lute List" <[3][4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> >Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:49 AM
> >Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
> >
> >
>
> >> Dear lute lovers,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da
Milano
> -
> >> Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note
of
the
> >> first motif?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like
this:
> >> Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried
to
> print
> >> it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print
only
> an
> >> upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to
a
> very
> >> common pattern so the motif could now fit into one bar.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Could that be possible? Maybe that happened with other pieces
as
> well?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Or maybe Francesco "had to" compose it like this because no
piece
> like
> >> a fantasia or ricercar would start with an upbeat?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Susanne
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >>
> >> To get on or off this list see list information at
> >> [4][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
>
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> ========================================
>
> --
> Peter Martin
> 24 The Mount St Georges
> Second Avenue
> Newcastle under Lyme
> ST5 8RB
> tel: 0044 (0)1782 662089
> mob: 0044 (0)7971 232614
> [5][6]peter.l...@gmail.com
>
> --
>
>References
>
> 1. mailto:[7]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
> 2. mailto:[8]mandolinens...@web.de
> 3. mailto:[9]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> 4. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 5. mailto:[11]peter.l...@gmail.com
>
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========================================
--
Peter Martin
24 The Mount St Georges
Second Avenue
Newcastle under Lyme
ST5 8RB
tel: 0044 (0)1782 662089
mob: 0044 (0)7971 232614
[12]peter.l...@gmail.com
--
References
1. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
2. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
3. mailto:mandolinens...@web.de
4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
6. mailto:peter.l...@gmail.com
7. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
8. mailto:mandolinens...@web.de
9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
11. mailto:peter.l...@gmail.com
12. mailto:peter.l...@gmail.com
