I know that some top lute makers (and by 'top' I really do mean names that cause avaricious salivation when they are uttered in the company of lutenists) use a number of different glues for different joints in an instrument - notably aliphatic resin (Titebond), but also hide glue for parts that may need to be separated for future repairs.
By the way, something I didn't find out until quite recently; hide glue dissolves very readily in alcohol - which could have its uses, especially for cleaning off residues. Piano technicians use that method of separating joints routinely, though of course it is likely to damage a polished surface it the alcohol gets onto it. Bill From: Garry Warber <garrywar...@hughes.net> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 31 August 2011, 12:31 Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01CC67B0.04145C50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But Sterling... I'm (or was) a luthier... I used hide glue for years, becoming an alchemist with the stuff adding nitrogen fertilizer and such to alter gel-times, diluting for strength, etc... I found epoxy (through boatbuilding) to be just as "reversible" with heat, and a lot nicer than hide glue to work with, providing you remembered it was a toxic nightmare and work clean... It works well. So do the other aliphatic resin glues, where appropriate. You should try gluing lute ribs with hide... Or even better, coating the join on the top/rib with hide glue then ironing it on. Epoxy will appeal after you do just one, I think... Garry From: sterling price Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:30 AM To: Garry Warber ; [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: long strings? As any good luthier will tell you today, hide glue is still superior to modern glue for several reasons. --Sterling Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? Or, As I enjoy assuming, the "old ones" used the best they had, and if they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of "interpretive gimmicks." I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-) Garry -----Original Message----- From: Roman Turovsky Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM To: Martyn Hodgson ; [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; andy butler Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? There is a great likelihood that "our" gut is rather acoustically different from "their". Lets not forget to use the honest modifier "approximation of". RT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "andy butler" <[5]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? > > The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the > Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the > sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors > heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials. > > MH > --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler <[6]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > From: andy butler <[7]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings? > To: [8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27 > > David van Ooijen wrote: > > The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better, > actually. > > If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if > cost > > is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the > > modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the > > best option. > Beginner's questions. > Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time > that someone mentioned earlier? > Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?) > andy > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01CC67B0.04145C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <HTML><HEAD></HEAD> <BODY dir=ltr> <DIV dir=ltr> <DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <DIV>But Sterling... I'm (or was) a luthier... <IMG style="BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none" class="wlEmoticon wlEmoticon-smile" alt=Smile src="cid:C406196480C44732A36F7147D25ECD70@GarryPC"> I used hide glue for years, becoming an alchemist with the stuff adding nitrogen fertilizer and such to alter gel-times, diluting for strength, etc... I found epoxy (through boatbuilding) to be just as "reversible" with heat, and a lot nicer than hide glue to work with, providing you remembered it was a toxic nightmare and work clean... <IMG style="BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none" class="wlEmoticon wlEmoticon-smile" alt=Smile src="cid:C406196480C44732A36F7147D25ECD70@GarryPC"> It works well. So do the other aliphatic resin glues, where appropriate. You should try gluing lute ribs with hide... Or even better, coating the join on the top/rib with hide glue then ironing it on. Epoxy will appeal after you do just one, I think...</DIV> <DIV>Garry </DIV> <DIV style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma"> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5"> <DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=[11]spiffys84...@yahoo.com href="mailto:[12]spiffys84...@yahoo.com">sterling price</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 31, 2011 2:30 AM</DIV> <DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=[13]garrywar...@hughes.net href="mailto:[14]garrywar...@hughes.net">Garry Warber</A> ; <A title=[15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu href="mailto:[16]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu">[17]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [LUTE] Re: long strings?</DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none"> <DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; COLOR: #000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <DIV style="RIGHT: auto"><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">As any good luthier will tell you today, hide glue is still superior to modern glue for several reasons.</SPAN></B></FONT></DIV> <DIV style="RIGHT: auto"><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"></SPAN></B></FONT> </DIV> <DIV style="RIGHT: auto"><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">--Sterling<VAR id=yui-ie-cursor></VAR></SPAN></B></FONT></DIV> <DIV style="RIGHT: auto"><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"></SPAN></B></FONT> </DIV> <DIV style="RIGHT: auto"><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"></SPAN></B></FONT> </DIV> <DIV style="RIGHT: auto"><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [LUTE] Re: long strings?<BR></FONT><BR>Or, As I enjoy assuming, the "old ones" used the best they had, and if <BR>they'd had epoxy glue and nylon strings that's what they'd have used... :-) <BR>Things can get endlessly circular in these beliefs. I just like how well <BR>the early music is written! The stuff plays itself without a lot of <BR>"interpretive gimmicks." I'm all for re-creating their sound as close as we <BR>can, for others. For myself, a totally modern lute is just ducky... :-)<BR>Garry<BR><BR>-----Original Message----- <BR>From: Roman Turovsky<BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:27 AM<BR>To: Martyn Hodgson ; <A href="mailto:[18]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" ymailto="mailto:[19]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu">[20]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu</A > ; andy butler<BR>Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings?<BR><BR>There is a great likelihood that "our" gut is rather acoustically different<BR>from "their".<BR>Lets not forget to use the honest modifier "approximation of".<BR>RT<BR><BR><BR><BR>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Martyn Hodgson" <<A href="mailto:[21]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk" ymailto="mailto:[22]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk">[23]hodgsonmartyn@yahoo. co.uk</A>><BR>To: <<A href="mailto:[24]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" ymailto="mailto:[25]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu">[26]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu</A >>; "andy butler" <<A href="mailto:[27]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk" ymailto="mailto:[28]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk">[29]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk< /A>><BR>Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 7:01 AM<BR>Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings?<BR><BR><BR>><BR>> The superiority of gut is chiefly that it was the material used by the<BR>> Old Ones. If we have any pretensions to attempting to reproduce the<BR>> sounds these early lutenist composers expected and their auditors<BR>> heard, it is necessary to employ the same string materials.<BR>><BR>> MH<BR>> --- On Tue, 30/8/11, andy butler <<A href="mailto:[30]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk" ymailto="mailto:[31]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk">[32]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk< /A>> wrote:<BR>><BR>> From: andy butler <<A href="mailto:[33]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk" ymailto="mailto:[34]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk">[35]akbut...@tiscali.co.uk< /A>><BR>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: long strings?<BR>> To: <A href="mailto:[36]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" ymailto="mailto:[37]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu">[38]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu</A ><BR>> Date: Tuesday, 30 August, 2011, 9:27<BR>><BR>> David van Ooijen wrote:<BR>> > The basses are shortish, so a higher tuning would be better,<BR>> actually.<BR>> > If the instrument is tuned to g', gut diapassons are possible (if<BR>> cost<BR>> > is an issue use fret gut, it really is so much better than any of the<BR>> > modern materials), otherwise carbon or metal-wounds seem to be the<BR>> > best option.<BR>> Beginner's questions.<BR>> Is the superiority of gut down to the shorter sustain time<BR>> that someone mentioned earlier?<BR>> Is string damping really unpopular? (unnecessary?)<BR>> andy<BR>> To get on or off this list see list information at<BR>> [1]<A href="[39]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html" target=_blank>[40]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm l</A><BR>><BR>> --<BR>><BR>> References<BR>><BR>> 1. <A href="[41]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html" target=_blank>[42]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.htm l</A><BR>><BR>><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV> </BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01CC67B0.04145C50-- -- -- References 1. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 6. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 7. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 11. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com 12. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com 13. mailto:garrywar...@hughes.net 14. mailto:garrywar...@hughes.net 15. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 16. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 17. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 18. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 19. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 20. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 21. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 22. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 23. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 24. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 25. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 26. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 27. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 28. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 29. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 30. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 31. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 32. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 33. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 34. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 35. mailto:akbut...@tiscali.co.uk 36. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 37. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 38. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 39. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 40. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 41. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 42. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html