Sean, That's the best explanation/description of the sound/feel of gut bass strings I've ever read. To me, (as the player- close to the instrument & in direct physical contact with it) the gut basses sound much "bassier" than overspuns- which are all "hard edge" outline of the note, with too much loud overtone & endless sustain, but really no fundamental substance to the note. The first time I heard/felt a good gut bass string it was like having a little double-bass in my lute. That said, the octave string thing has been very variable for me. On my 6 course lute, (based on a very early model, the body following Arnault de Zwolle's 15th century shape) unison basses, even on the 4th course, also sound very dull and clunky. It just sounds bad.
But, my vihuela sounds terrible to my ears even with only one octave on the 6th course, although close up photos by Dan Larson of the original Chambure vihuela mine is based on seem to show string wear at the bridge consistent with octaves on the three bass courses. Of course, a copy is not the original, the strings have not survived, and we don't know the player/owner's mind, perceptions, abilities, or the gigs he/she might have played. As Martin Shepherd said, "We simply don't know." Get the lute players loaded- not the strings, and all chanterelles will appear doubled. Dan On Nov 20, 2011, at 12:39 PM, Sean Smith wrote: > > Gut and modern metal-wound are truly different animals. > > Try this thought experiment. As you know the modern string (this will be an > abbreviation for the "modern metal wound around a synthetic core", ok?) will > ring considerably longer. Assuming the tensions are equal, the gut string > will dissipate quicker. So where does the energy go? What's stopping that big > piece of rope? > > All those big rubbery strands are rubbing against each other as they push > various internal parts in conflicting directions and the direction of any one > point on that string is not a deterministic line back and forth or even a > smooth oval like you see on a modern string. So yes, in a sense it does a lot > of cancelling out and counterproduction. When you strike a fat fundamental > gut string you can actually feel the whole lute move. That energy is being > dissipated into the lute's mass. Some of it is also absorbed into other > strings. (Watch Jacob Herringmann play his bass lute; he holds it very > loosely to let the lute absorb the sound and create a very striking overtone > that is _not_ part of the string. No, you won't hear it on the cd. Get up > close and personal.). Admittedly some of it is also absorbed into other > strings and you'll see them move sympathetically. When a string is behaving > and decaying like this the upper overtones are very difficult to hear but the > bass note/fun! damental is powerful and nuanced from its own nature and the lute. As you might expect, all that energy dissipating so quickly in so many places means it dies in volume quickly along w/ any higher overtones it produces. > > When you pluck a bass gut ropey fundamental there's a big thud and you feel > it as much as you hear it. Two thuds that decay together don't really help > but a smaller string that moves with the overtones will continue to convey > the purpose of that note. > > As the lute moved into the baroque a curious though predictable change > occurs. The lute must be made more larger to support the space and tension of > so many strings (and those extra strings create a tension that additionally > strengthens it) and, viola, a longer lasting bass note. Now where does the > energy go? It doesn't! It rings longer! You can easily do this experiment > playing Tant que vivray on a 6c and then on a 10c. (Yes, I've done this on > identical strung 6c and 10c lutes) > > Going back to the 6c, when that lute absorbs that mass to slow it down it > also vibrates in various directions. What happens if we forbid it to move in > one axis or another, like say, we brace it against a table top? It rings > longer. Maybe that table will absorb part of the energy and we get to hear a > little more but the majority stays w/ the lute due the mass difference. We > can do that experiment, too. Place the bottom edge against a light table > (forbidding motion in the up-and-down axis) and then a marble table and you > can actually hear the difference. > > Another point of dissipation is, as above, the other strings moving in > _nearly_ sympathetic vibration. The key word is that 'nearly'. This is where > meantone starts to play its part. Let's save that for later. > > Sean > > > > On Nov 20, 2011, at 11:48 AM, Edward Mast wrote: > > Sean's point is interesting. Whether unison or octave tuning on the 6th > course (or above) might well depend on whether gut or synthetic strings are > used. I've never been comfortable with octave stringing above the 7th course > of my 8 course instrument since I often play thumb-index on the 6th as well > as the higher courses (sometimes in solo literature, but especially in > ensemble music). I prefer the sound of unisons when played t-i. Were I to > go to gut, I might find that I would need to go to octave tuning, and have to > learn to accustom myself to that sound, and/or alter my technique. > On Nov 20, 2011, at 2:13 PM, Sean Smith wrote: > >> >> Bill >> >> That's a good question and we should all get a chance to listen to the >> experiment. I did and from my experience a unison-strung 6c is pretty clunky >> to play. When you have two ropey gut 6th course basses side by side you run >> into intonation (and buzzing) problems and it's pretty difficult to get a >> good tone playing both w/ a thumb. It also gets difficult to finger on the >> left hand. To my ear it becomes muddy. >> >> As I understand it, playing with octaves you should play the fundamental and >> brush the octave (simultaineously) as a habit so the ear hears the bass note >> correctly and still unconsciously digests the overtones keeping the sound >> bright and light. >> >> This is only my interpretation of it over the years. >> >> Sean >> >> >> On Nov 20, 2011, at 10:53 AM, William Samson wrote: >> >> Certainly, Ed. But how many vihuelas do we see nowadays in these >> configurations? In fact I wonder if there's a single one that isn't >> set up with unisons throughout and a double first? We're very >> conservative (with a small 'c') when it comes to pushing the envelope. >> I wonder if there was any recognised difference between how lutes and >> vihuelas were strung in a given place at the time. Nowadays, though, >> we're very blinkered about it all and conform to templates which are in >> some ways questionable. >> I'd love to hear Milan, say, played on an octave strung vihuela, or >> Milano on a unison strung 6c lute. >> Bill >> From: Edward Martin <e...@gamutstrings.com> >> To: William Samson <willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" >> <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 18:31 >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? >> Thanks for the reference, Bill. There have been new discoveries >> since the time the article was written, where we now cannot claim >> that vihuelas were string in unison. Some were, others were >> not. They may have had the double first course, but there is >> evidence to the contrary that some vihuelas were string in octaves on >> 4,5, and 6th courses. >> ed >> At 12:02 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: >>> I've found the reference - Segerman and Abbott, FoMRHI Comm number >> 30, >>> July 1976 >>> [1][1]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf >>> >>> They say (p37) "Instruments which come to mind that had double >> first >>> courses and unison basses were >>> 1. Vihuela >>> 2. Robinson (1603) and Dowland (1610) lute. >>> 3. At least some late 16th century Italian lutes. . . . ." >>> >>> They give references on which they base these statements. >>> >>> Interesting stuff. What I find odd is that we've been channelled >> into >>> a mindset where just about all 6c lutes built nowadays have single >>> first courses and octaves on 6, 5 and 4. Lutes with 7 or more >> courses >>> have unisons on 5, 4, 3, 2 and a single first, and octaves from 6 >>> downwards. 11 and 13 c lutes have single 1st and second courses >> but >>> 12c lutes have double second courses. All very formulaic and I'm >> as >>> guilty as anyone of following these 'rules'. But there's plenty >> of >>> evidence of more varied configurations in use at the time, and it >> would >>> be surprising if there wasn't. It's a pity that these differences >>> don't show up in modern practice, though I fully understand why - >>> resale value for example, and maybe an assumption that as these >> seem to >>> have ended up as the most successful configurations at the time, >>> there's no need to explore anything else. >>> >>> Bill >>> >>> PS Oh yes - and octave stringing works out cheaper too :o) >>> From: Daniel Winheld <[2]dwinh...@comcast.net> >>> To: William Samson <[3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> >>> Cc: "[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 17:05 >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? >>>>> " I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were >>> usually strung in unisons." >>> Mimmo Peruffo disputes that assumption: from his website page >> "The >>> lute in its historical reality"- >>> 9. Double treble and unison courses: the fact that the vihuela was >>> generally (but not always) strung with a double treble led some >>> scholars to take that as evidence in favour of all courses having >> been >>> strung with unisons. We fail to grasp the logic of it. There is, >> on the >>> other hand, evidence proving that the vihuela could have a single >>> treble, whereas most Renaissance lutes where strung with double >>> trebles. >>> [2][6]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm >>> On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:42 PM, William Samson wrote: >>>> Again - I've forgotten the source (probably Eph Segerman), but >> I >>> seem >>>> to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually >> strung >>> in >>>> unisons. I do know that Eph had a 7c lute made like this and >> strung >>>> with catlines (his own manufacture - Northern Renaissance >>> Instruments) >>>> in the basses. It certainly worked very well, but sounded >> 'darker' >>>> than a lute with octave stringing in the basses. >>>> Bill >>>> From: wikla <[3][7]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi> >>>> To: [4][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:51 >>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? >>>> Thanks to all for the most interesting answers! >>>> I actually just ordered a 6 courser, model Venere (the >> original, the >>>> model, >>>> was a 7 courser, I suppose?) from Lauri Niskanen, the guy who >> made >>> my >>>> new >>>> 11 courser. And I ordered an option to double chanterelle - >> just one >>>> extra >>>> peg, just 3 grooves and 3 holes up and down. >>>> Any more constructive ideas what to hope and ask? >>>> best, >>>> Arto >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> [1][5][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> References >>>> >>>> 1. >> [6][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>> -- >>> >>> -- >>> >>> References >>> >>> 1. [11]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf >>> 2. [12]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm >>> 3. mailto:[13]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi >>> 4. mailto:[14]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> 5. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 6. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> Edward Martin >> 2817 East 2nd Street >> Duluth, Minnesota 55812 >> e-mail: [17]e...@gamutstrings.com >> voice: (218) 728-1202 >> [18]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name >> [19]http://www.myspace.com/edslute >> [20]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf >> 2. mailto:dwinh...@comcast.net >> 3. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk >> 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 6. http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm >> 7. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi >> 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 11. http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf >> 12. http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm >> 13. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi >> 14. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 17. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com >> 18. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name >> 19. http://www.myspace.com/edslute >> 20. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin >> >> >> > > > > >
