They certainly do sound lovely. I wonder if we'll ever know just how the thickest gut basses were made back in the day. Certainly the roped ones, while being flexible enough to play in tune all the way up the fingerboard, do sound 'thuddy' to modern ears. Is that something that would have been acceptable in the 16th/17th centuries, or did they make better basses? Judging by the sizes of holes in original bridges their basses must have been thinner than our roped ones, so I guess they had a different way of making them. 'Loaded' gut certainly sounds good, but is that what they did? It all helps keep life interesting for string researchers.
Getting back to Arto's question, it would seem that some 6c instruments had 12 pegs, whether they had a single or a double first. I would guess the customers were keeping their options open. It seems to me that there's no reason why a lutenist today shouldn't take the same approach and have an instrument that could be strung either way. A couple of my own lutes have a peg more than I actually use right now, but it means I can change my mind without changing my instrument. My 7c has 14 pegs and my 10c has 20 pegs, which means I can change it to an 11c with a single second any time I want (with a differen nut and an extra hole in the bridge). Bill From: Edward Martin <e...@gamutstrings.com> To: William Samson <willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>; Edward Martin <e...@gamutstrings.com> Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 21:29 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks for the comments. On those instruments, we have octaves only at the 6th, and on one instrument, also at the 5th. Those you-tubes are from a performance in Gijon, Spain , this summer. I actually received some criticism on the stringing, being told we should have unisons, and double first courses. The reasons stated were due to polyphony, getting an even sound. I am not so certain as I think those Chambure vihuelas sound nice as they are strung. ed At 01:52 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: > That's great! Are these both octave strung instruments on your Duo Chambure Youtubes? The sound is gorgeous! > Bill > > From: Edward Martin <[1]e...@gamutstrings.com> > To: William Samson <[2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>; "[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 18:58 > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? > > Thanks, Bill. > > I have my vihuelas set up in gut, with octaves on 4, 5, and 6. It > sounds charming, and yes, I do play Milan on it! > > ed > > At 12:53 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: > > Certainly, Ed. But how many vihuelas do we see nowadays in these > > configurations? In fact I wonder if there's a single one that isn't > > set up with unisons throughout and a double first? We're very > > conservative (with a small 'c') when it comes to pushing the envelope. > > I wonder if there was any recognised difference between how lutes and > > vihuelas were strung in a given place at the time. Nowadays, though, > > we're very blinkered about it all and conform to templates which are in > > some ways questionable. > > I'd love to hear Milan, say, played on an octave strung vihuela, or > > Milano on a unison strung 6c lute. > > Bill > > From: Edward Martin <<mailto:[5]e...@gamutstrings.com>[6]e...@gamutstrings.com> > > To: William Samson <<mailto:[7]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>[8]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>; "<mailto:[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" > > <<mailto:[11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>[12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 18:31 > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? > > Thanks for the reference, Bill. There have been new discoveries > > since the time the article was written, where we now cannot claim > > that vihuelas were string in unison. Some were, others were > > not. They may have had the double first course, but there is > > evidence to the contrary that some vihuelas were string in octaves on > > 4,5, and 6th courses. > > ed > > At 12:02 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: > > > I've found the reference - Segerman and Abbott, FoMRHI Comm number > > 30, > > > July 1976 > > > [1][1]<[13]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf>[14]h ttp://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf > > > > > > They say (p37) "Instruments which come to mind that had double > > first > > > courses and unison basses were > > > 1. Vihuela > > > 2. Robinson (1603) and Dowland (1610) lute. > > > 3. At least some late 16th century Italian lutes. . . . ." > > > > > > They give references on which they base these statements. > > > > > > Interesting stuff. What I find odd is that we've been channelled > > into > > > a mindset where just about all 6c lutes built nowadays have single > > > first courses and octaves on 6, 5 and 4. Lutes with 7 or more > > courses > > > have unisons on 5, 4, 3, 2 and a single first, and octaves from 6 > > > downwards. 11 and 13 c lutes have single 1st and second courses > > but > > > 12c lutes have double second courses. All very formulaic and I'm > > as > > > guilty as anyone of following these 'rules'. But there's plenty > > of > > > evidence of more varied configurations in use at the time, and it > > would > > > be surprising if there wasn't. It's a pity that these differences > > > don't show up in modern practice, though I fully understand why - > > > resale value for example, and maybe an assumption that as these > > seem to > > > have ended up as the most successful configurations at the time, > > > there's no need to explore anything else. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > PS Oh yes - and octave stringing works out cheaper too :o) > > > From: Daniel Winheld <[2]<mailto:[15]dwinh...@comcast.net>[16]dwinh...@comcast.net> > > > To: William Samson <[3]<mailto:[17]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk>[18]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk> > > > Cc: "[4]<mailto:[19]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>[20]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[5]<mailto:[21]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>[22]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > > Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 17:05 > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? > > > >> " I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were > > > usually strung in unisons." > > > Mimmo Peruffo disputes that assumption: from his website page > > "The > > > lute in its historical reality"- > > > 9. Double treble and unison courses: the fact that the vihuela was > > > generally (but not always) strung with a double treble led some > > > scholars to take that as evidence in favour of all courses having > > been > > > strung with unisons. We fail to grasp the logic of it. There is, > > on the > > > other hand, evidence proving that the vihuela could have a single > > > treble, whereas most Renaissance lutes where strung with double > > > trebles. > > > [2][6]<[23]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm>[24]http://www.mimmoperuf fo.org/9e.htm > > > On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:42 PM, William Samson wrote: > > > > Again - I've forgotten the source (probably Eph Segerman), but > > I > > > seem > > > > to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually > > strung > > > in > > > > unisons. I do know that Eph had a 7c lute made like this and > > strung > > > > with catlines (his own manufacture - Northern Renaissance > > > Instruments) > > > > in the basses. It certainly worked very well, but sounded > > 'darker' > > > > than a lute with octave stringing in the basses. > > > > Bill > > > > From: wikla <[3][7]<mailto:[25]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi>[26]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi> > > > > To: [4][8]<mailto:[27]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>[28]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > > > Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:51 > > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? > > > > Thanks to all for the most interesting answers! > > > > I actually just ordered a 6 courser, model Venere (the > > original, the > > > > model, > > > > was a 7 courser, I suppose?) from Lauri Niskanen, the guy who > > made > > > my > > > > new > > > > 11 courser. And I ordered an option to double chanterelle - > > just one > > > > extra > > > > peg, just 3 grooves and 3 holes up and down. > > > > Any more constructive ideas what to hope and ask? > > > > best, > > > > Arto > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > > [1][5][9]<[29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>[3 0]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > References > > > > > > > > 1. > > [6][10]<[31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>[32] http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > -- > > > > > >References > > > > > > 1. [11]<[33]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf>[34]htt p://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf > > > 2. [12]<[35]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm>[36]http://www.mimmoperuffo .org/9e.htm > > > 3. mailto:[13][37]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi > > > 4. mailto:[14][38]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > > 5. [15]<[39]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>[40]htt p://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > 6. [16]<[41]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>[42]htt p://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > Edward Martin > > 2817 East 2nd Street > > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > > e-mail: [17]<mailto:[43]e...@gamutstrings.com>[44]e...@gamutstrings.com > > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > [18]<[45]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name>[46 ]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > > [19]<[47]http://www.myspace.com/edslute>[48]http://www.myspace.com/edsl ute > > [20]<[49]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin>[50]http://magnatun e.com/artists/edward_martin > > > > -- > > > >References > > > > 1. <[51]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf>[52]http:// www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf > > 2. mailto:[53]dwinh...@comcast.net > > 3. mailto:[54]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk > > 4. mailto:[55]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > 5. mailto:[56]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > 6. <[57]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm>[58]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org /9e.htm > > 7. mailto:[59]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi > > 8. mailto:[60]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > 9. <[61]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>[62]http:// www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 10. [63]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 11. <[64]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf>[65]http:// www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf > > 12. [66]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm > > 13. mailto:[67]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi > > 14. mailto:[68]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > 15. <[69]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>[70]http:// www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 16. [71]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > 17. mailto:[72]e...@gamutstrings.com > > 18. <[73]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name>[74]htt p://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > > 19. [75]http://www.myspace.com/edslute > > 20. <[76]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin>[77]http://magnatune.co m/artists/edward_martin > > > > Edward Martin > 2817 East 2nd Street > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > e-mail: <mailto:[78]e...@gamutstrings.com>[79]e...@gamutstrings.com > voice: (218) 728-1202 > <[80]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name>[81]htt p://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > [82]http://www.myspace.com/edslute > <[83]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin>[84]http://magnatune.co m/artists/edward_martin > > > > Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [85]e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 [86]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name [87]http://www.myspace.com/edslute [88]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin -- References 1. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com 2. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com 6. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com 7. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk 8. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk 9. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 10. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 11. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 13. http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf 14. http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf 15. mailto:dwinh...@comcast.net 16. mailto:dwinh...@comcast.net 17. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk 18. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk 19. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 20. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 21. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 22. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 23. http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm 24. http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm 25. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 26. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 27. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 28. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 29. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 30. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 31. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 32. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 33. http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf 34. http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf 35. http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm 36. http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm 37. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 38. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 39. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 40. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 41. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 42. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 43. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com 44. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com 45. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 46. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 47. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 48. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 49. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin 50. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin 51. http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf 52. http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf 53. mailto:dwinh...@comcast.net 54. mailto:willsam...@yahoo.co.uk 55. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 56. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 57. http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm 58. http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm 59. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 60. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 61. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 62. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 63. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 64. http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf 65. http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf 66. http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm 67. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 68. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 69. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 70. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 71. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 72. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com 73. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 74. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 75. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 76. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin 77. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin 78. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com 79. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com 80. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 81. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 82. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 83. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin 84. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin 85. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com 86. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 87. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 88. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
