Cromwell and the Puritans were the worst thing that ever happened to England. The Puritans who came to the U.S. (British colonies then) persecuted and murdered scores of non-Puritans.
Chris -----Original Message----- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Edward Chrysogonus Yong Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 4:55 AM To: Mark Wheeler Cc: Monica Hall; ml; Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... ======== τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. > On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler <l...@pantagruel.de> wrote: > > Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article > > https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf > > What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set of > criteria is true and is also appropriate to the "racism" of the English Queen. > > It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England did not > fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! > > All the best > Mark > > > > >> On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: >> >> Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an inappropriate set of >> criteria. >> Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most of us >> study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. >> Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people from >> England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. >> >> Monica briefly >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ml" <man...@manololaguillo.com> >> To: "LUTELIST List" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy >> >> >>> Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I >>> mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard to >>> what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance sexuality.) and >>> so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly everything. >>> >>> Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail >>> when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen >>> everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the >>> heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and >>> 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so closely >>> monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried with jews, >>> heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted >>> instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, "escaped from this general >>> fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan than >>> his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the church was >>> controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it seems that Italy lost >>> his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree than other countries." >>> >>> But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un >>> mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, Italy suffered >>> under the inquisition as well. >>> Galileo's case is of course very well known. >>> >>> It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. >>> >>> Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) >>> >>> Manolo >>> >>> >>> >>>> El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith <lutesm...@mac.com> escribió: >>>> >>>> >>>> That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's book is the >>>> Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a refined and complex idiom >>>> unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or Venetiana dance cycles. >>>> >>>> Sean >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: >>>> >>>> A word of caution here: >>>> >>>> We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence (i.e., >>>> the 7 main vihuela tablatures); there was a great deal of music (most of >>>> it!) that took place in Spain outside of these formal, published works. >>>> >>>> Publishing was a big deal in the 16th century. Getting an imprimatur from >>>> a conservative and literally Inquisitorial government was unlikely with a >>>> large collection of dance music; much easier to play it conservative and >>>> stick to sacred intabulations. The vihuela manuscripts hint at a wider >>>> repertoire, as does the existence of guitar music from a later period. Who >>>> knows what was happening on the streets, but the Inquisition wouldn't have >>>> had much to do if everyone in Spain was a straight-laced as the vihuela >>>> tablatures make it seem . . . >>>> >>>> Gary >>>> >>>> Dr. Gary R. Boye >>>> Professor and Music Librarian >>>> Appalachian State University >>>> >>>>> On 5/4/2015 12:37 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: >>>>> In other words, because the only two ethnic/cultural groups that had any >>>>> rhythm were invited to leave the premises at once. It was said that when >>>>> all the Jewish & Moorish doctors, scholars, scientists, and artists & >>>>> academics showed up on his doorstep, the Sultan of Turkey asked "Has the >>>>> King of Spain lost his mind?" >>>>> >>>>> Lacking some rhythm myself, I do enjoy the all the great vihuela music a >>>>> lot- but even I have to sometimes "move" over to Italy & Germany for a >>>>> little jumping around. >>>>> >>>>> Dan >>>>> >>>>>> On 5/4/2015 3:36 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: >>>>>> Well, the first answer that springs to mind is because Spain had >>>>>> recently kicked out all the dance musicians, who had moved to Italy. >>>>>> They were left with a bunch of upwardly mobile courtiers (Milan), >>>>>> and serious-minded priests with so much time on their hands that >>>>>> they intabulated every piece of vocal polyphony they could put >>>>>> their hands on. >>>>>> Actually, there is quite a bit of dance music in Fuenllana's >>>>>> print, some but much less in the other six published books. >>>>>> Also, there was quite a bit of dance music evident in Naples, >>>>>> which was Spanish at the time. >>>>>> RA >>>>>>> Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 09:29:52 +0200 >>>>>>> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>>>>> From: r.ba...@gmx.de >>>>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Spain vs. Italy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> In the early 1500s, why are dances so common in Italian lute >>>>>>> music >>>>>> and >>>>>>> so rare in the vihuela rep. ? >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Sent from my Android phone with GMX Mail. Please excuse my brevity. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>> >>> >>> -- > > >
