Indeed. I well recall Eph Segerman remarking several years ago that
the obsession with thumb-under was, and for many remains, an attempt by
some modern lutenists to distance themselves from the hated classical
guitar which, ironically, many had started out on!
As you say Ron, the evidence is very clear
MH
On Wednesday, 6 March 2019, 13:08:10 GMT, Ron Andrico
<praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Perhaps the mis-remembered quotation is a conflation of Besard and
Vallet, who recommended thumb-index for fast passages. Nevertheless,
music from around 1600 forward in time should be played with the
thumb
out if we are to follow the written advice and the iconography. I
still see far too may baroque lute and theorbo players using
thumb-under, which is patently absurd given both the historical
precedent and the physical layout of extended bass instruments.
Isn't
it about time lute players moved forward from the guitarist versus
lutenist nonsense from the 1970s and played according to actual
historical examples?
__________________________________________________________________
From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
behalf
of Martin Shepherd <[3]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:23 AM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
Dear All,
Just from memory - Besard insists on thumb-out technique as being the
best, but allows that people with short thumbs may find thumb-inside
easier. I find it inconceivable that he would change hand position
during a piece, and see no reason why you should not use thumb-index
alternation in fast runs with thumb out - flamenco guitarists do it
all
the time.
The fingering dots in the ML lute book (c.1640) give an interesting
indication of this. In Dowland's fantasia (Poulton 1, ML ff.14v-15r)
all runs are marked to be played middle-index, except where a running
passage has infrequent bass notes (f.15, second system) which have no
double dots (meaning middle), so presumably to be be played
thumb-index. Once the bass notes become more frequent (and the speed
of the treble movement stays the same, 3rd and 4th systems) the
middle-index alternation returns. Then a fast cadential formula (end
of
system 5) lacks any double dots and is therefore thumb-index.
I'm sure there are many other examples like this. Nigel North's
recent
talk at the Lute Society gave many interesting examples of RH
fingerings.
Martin
On 06/03/2019 08:06, [4]jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote:
> Sorry: 'original', naturally!
>
> Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
> Originalnachricht
> Von: [5]jo.lued...@t-online.de
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 07:49
> An: Lute net
> Antwort an: [6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
>
>
> Dear Alan, dear Jurgen,
>
> There is something to that effect in all 'oroginal' versions of
Besard's instructions, that is: 1603 and 1617. I do not remember if
ye
text englished contains the passage...
>
> Best
>
> Joachim
>
>
> Originalnachricht
> Von: Alain Veylit
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 04:32
> Antwort an: [7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Cc: Lute net
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
>
>
> Jurgen,
>
> It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but I am sure I
saw
> it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in English in
the
> Varietie of Lute Lessons?
>
> Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ...
>
> Alain
>
> On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:
>> It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where Besard made
that suggestion.
>> Thanks,
>> jurgen
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------
>> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
>>
>> JalÃl ad-Dën Muhammad Rumi
>>
>> âââââââ Original Message âââââââ.
>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit
<[8]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
>>
>>> That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand
pinky:
>>> plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat -
which
>>> requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little
finger
can
>>> bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger
but
...
>>> For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little
finger
>>> is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly
brushing on
>>> it, and it should remain extended.
>>>
>>> Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would
alter
>>> the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a
mixed
>>> technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever
else
>>> (chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the
thumb
>>> to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand
position,
>>> and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in
music
>>> history...
>>>
>>> On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote:
>>>
>>>> Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O'Dette couldn't bend
that finger down by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the
fault was in my head, not in the stars.
>>>> D ick Brook
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit
[9]al...@musickshandmade.com wrote:
>>>>> Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American
series from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and
the
only sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend their little
finger?
>>>>> Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix
playing with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think?
>>>>> On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to
the
rules of guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has
probably always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by
choice
or force.
>>>>>> And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he
was
an alien :)
>>>>>> Rainer
>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>>>> [1][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
>
>
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