I'll humour you... >> Council is not the best solution, as council still has no >> rights but obligations. > > What rights does the council need if it is elected by the community? It has > "the power of the people". > > -- (sorry no chance to edit properly under Google Groups editor) > -- exactly > replce "hte power of the people" by > "the power of the corporation" > and you can make a business and manufacture Nokia Internet Tablet > to be hot product, market challenge.
Fine, if we wanted to we could indeed, possibly, do this. But we don't want to. That is not the point of the maemo.org community. This email thread was started with the goal of obtaining feedback about how to organise a community council. If you have anything relevant to say about *that*, please do say it, otherwise you're going off-topic. >> One thing should be discussed and disclosed yet, >> what is a role of Nokia in maemo.org >> to avoid legal issues and problems in the future. >> Linux developers should be fully aware in advance if they >> work and devote their time >> for Nokia Corporation, for maemo.org not-incorporated, >> maemo.org - organization , incorporation pending or just >> work for fun, for free, for the community. > > Well this is to be a community project. > > -- Ok. Hardware is corporate project, Nokia Internet Tablet. > No chance to have community to finance development and production of > hardware. Indeed. That is not the goal, see my reply above. We are not planning on taking over the Maemo project and creating competing hardware + software but rather on making the community <-> Nokia interaction as productive and easy as possible. > The copyright of the maemo.org name > will be held by Nokia > > -- ok. But copyright to service name, trademark makes no software > product. > What makes Linux software is developers. You're off topic again; we're talking about a community and documentation, not about software. > so they have a final veto (they also pay for and > maintain the site), > > You need pocket money to buy and pay for web site > or you can even get one for free. > To register a new domain cost you another pocket money. > So money is not an issue. Indeed money is probably not an issue, this could happen somewhere else, but why not here, where the well known name points (maemo.org) and with the cooperation of Nokia (after all the point here is to work with them, that's the reason we're doing this!) > Issue is developers. Not with regard to how to organise the community - Nokia interaction it is categorically nothing to do with programmers. It would be great to encourage more programmers to develop for the platform and the establishment of a community driven maemo.org should facilitate that (well at least it would make me happier and I'm a developer). > Therefore any > developers (web developers I guess you mean) will be working for fun, for > their community. > > -- ok, great > and what about a case, another nice web place, website > created asks developers from maemo to move to their website > and work for another project ? So be it. If they offer a more compelling platform on which to develop then they can and will leave. It's up to Nokia + the community to provide both compelling hardware and a useful community. This is not about trying to lock people into the platform, except by virtue of it being so cool that why would you want to leave and do something else. > I should add that there are a few people (Dave Neary - docs, Niels Breet - > website and to a lesser extent Andre Klapper and Karsten Braeckelmann - > bugtrackers) who are paid by Nokia to work on/for maemo.org part-time. I > imagine that that they will be doing what the community wants them to do. I > don't see this being a problem. > > -- very bad solution > The ruler is one you hires you and pays for your services. And if the paymaster says that they should do what the community asks of them - works for me. > Paying a community , paying some members of the community > to organize other members of the same community to work for free > is not a good idea as it makes Maemo a corporate project > and no more community project. People have been hired based on their skill sets - I see no problem in having a number of people who know what they are doing to advise how the website documentation should be organised and to maintain the underlying website infrastructure, etc. I do not know how to do either, and indeed it may take up quite a bit of my free time (which is when I do my DSP hacking and write these emails) to be able to do these tasks. I assume that when the time comes and we have a large enough community contributing, etc, some of these roles may no longer be necessary as they will be taken over by community members. To get the ball rolling, we need (and have) these people now. > Community project is really general term used on the Internet if > you with collaborators to work for you for free > under non-for-profit status > or you can't afford to have contract workers. Community implies collaboration, not working for someone. In my opinion Nokia are part of the community, I expect to see communication between "them" and "us". >> Working for Nokia Corporation on corporate products is really >> great think. >> But please aware, any software code is still copyrighted to >> its author not Nokia >> and today and forever. But we are not working for Nokia, nor should we be talking about software in this thread. > Presumably the copyright of the website & contents will be under a Gnu Free > Documentation Licence (a la Wikipedia) or a Creative Commons Licence. > > -- ok, idea is good > but moving a piece of code from a developer's website, computer > to maemo.org website can't change its legal status, legal status > of his/her copyrights. Well obviously it can, if I give away my copyright then it is no longer mine. I have to do this to publish material in journals, surely you've come across it before? I don't know the ins and outs of copyright law, but my assumption is that if you add information to the wiki, you effectively give your permission for it to be copied, as long as the source is referenced (depending on the licence under which you publish it). Can someone who knows about this chip in here please? > Status of software repository is just repository status, nothing more. > Uploading Linux software code to a website can't > violate copyrights of its author or amend them. > There is a number of Nokia Internet Tablet respositories for > software applications > claiming nothing about copyrights. And? What's your point? > What's > the current licensing model (http://maemo.org/legal/terms_of_use.html). This > is presumably something that could be discussed if people have a preference > one way or the other. > > -- sorry my friend but first discuss than set your terms. > Terms have been already set by Nokia at maemo.org > so why ppl should discuss terms over and over having no > influence on its final version. > Set your own terms to meet international standard and Nokia's need > and expectations. Well this is where you are obviously mistaken. If data from the current wiki are to be transferred somewhere with a different licensing policy, it will be necessary to see if these two are compatible will it not? >> Another way is to discuss such contractual relations between >> Linux developers and corporations having global status and >> set terms, have lawyers from Free Software Foundation and >> other organizations to represent developers in relations with >> corporations >> to facilitate intellectual property rights transfer >> under US, EU IT rights protections acts, rules, regulations. > > There are no contracts. This is community for community. > > -- the above idea is great > but who makes money is the corporation > so such model simple can't work for the cae money, profit is involved. I'm not, nor presumably is the rest of the maemo.org community in it for the money (as I don't get paid). I do this as I enjoy it. Simple as that. > So one day, a big corporation has to make a business offer > to a developer, like Microsoft and pay a sum of money for > a good commercial product. > Times have changed > and Linux embedded products generate billions in profit for > big corporations so why developers should still work for free > not participating in profit share. Off topic, but yes, I agree with you. The only reason is that they enjoy doing what they are doing and they want the experience/kudos. If they are lucky that experience may land them a job. > If someone decides > they can no longer take part (in the council for example), they will need to > be replaced. How this would happen is something that has to be worked out > (by this discussion for example). > > -- ok, Council is administration > but what you need at Maemo.org is managers, directors > to organize a job, work and supervise development work. No, not really. This is not about doing Nokia's work for them, it's about making the interaction between the community (doing the work they find interesting/fixing things they find annoying) and Nokia. >> And you at Nokia and from Nokia, >> please follow an example by Apple, having developed iPhone, iPod Touch >> and new 3G GPS iPhone >> please look at repositories of community made software, look >> at SDK policy. > > If there's a real problem here (what's wrong with the SDK policy - > email me > in a separate thread please), then this is the sort of thing the maemo.org > council should be addressing when it has its meetings with Quim. > > --- no problem today > and what about tommorrow ? Why waste bandwidth complaining then!? > You at Maemo.org (by Nokia) have developers from different legal system > and some may claim copyrights later or sooner, some may > file patent applications one day, > so the issue is very complicated. Fine, this email thread is about sorting out the management of the community. You are off topic, take this point to a different email thread (start a new one). >> Nokia should incorporate Maemo.org as a business entity, corporation >> and nominate directors, board, officers >> and have job done under supervision and management provided by Nokia. > > The whole point of this is to allow the community to exist and grow without > being controlled by Nokia, > > -- as long as some guts at Maemo.org are paid by Nokia, > Nokia governs and rules Maemo.org > Nokia owns domain name. > That's all. > Closing domain one day closes all project/s. Well it doesn't close the projects, but it will certainly upset things (note that the code and projects do not just reside at maemo.org). Shooting the developers would close the projects as would shutting down the internet (there's always CDs ;). Why are you worrying about this sort of thing? > but rather to be a partner in the direction of > that growth. I think your opinions, while interesting, are at odds with > those of the majority. > > Cheers, > > > Simon (aka lardman) > > --- thanks my friend > I was so lucky to incorporate one of the world's first Internet > corporations (VC) - Globewide Network Academy in Texas. > Serving as its first COB, director > so I was tought how to govern global scale project > tought to work and cooperate with hundreds of developers, > enthusiasts in the world. > It was a long time ago. > Very long time ago. > Internet in Europe was under development (Bitnet only or dial-up) > and no Internet at the Commission of the European Union . > > I was so lucky to work at the Global University > to have Dr. Takeshi Utsumi > to held Global Lecture Hall > and get me trained in distance learning, distance education > on a free basis. > > Today Internet = Business > Business = Internet. > And you can expect to still have Linux developers to work for you for free > but how long and what can stop them to move to another project, > join another Maemo2, Maemo3. > So you have to provide them with legal protection > protction of their copyrights and make their job and work > efficient. I agree with making their job/work efficient. That is one of the effects we hope an organised maemo.org community will have, to allow people their say amongst other things. Copyright is not an issue - if you add docs to the wiki be prepared to accept whatever licensing agreement it operates under, if you have a Garage project then your copyright is yours. I see no problem here what so ever. Please keep to the topic of this thread (or start a new thread) as your points, while interesting, are far too far off topic far too much of the time. Cheers, Simon _______________________________________________ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
