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Hi Jeff, Thanks for your input. I do, however, take issue with this particular paragraph: "It is inexplicable that they would see the suffering of Palestinians and be morally outraged while having no such reaction to the Nazi holocaust. You cannot find in their writings solidarity with anti-imperialist struggles in general or defense of minorities in European countries. Or support for any other struggles by Arabs where Israel isn't involved. The only possible explanation for their "solidarity" with Palestine, having internalized the mainstream narrative of a "Jewish-Arab conflict" in the middle-east, is anti-semitism." See, I don't see Palestine as just another human rights struggle. I think there are obvious elements of the Zionist colonization of Palestine that are distinct -- the warfare against a stateless people, the sheer length of time that the violence has gone on, the settler-colonial element, the support from the US, the Zionist lobby in the United States, etc. I can think of plenty of reasons, then, why someone would particularly single out Israel while not being very aware or supportive of other Arab causes. Indeed, even within the Arab world, there is plenty of dissension over Palestine. Just as there are many who have forgone their historic solidarity with Palestine, there are many who support Palestine but are silent or even supportive of the crimes of Bashar Al-Assad. Is it fair to say that such people are "anti-Semitic"? Or is it more fair to say that they are two different armed conflicts, and as such, different people will come to terms with them differently? Likewise, I would say the same about the Holocaust. The Holocaust is a separate crime, and as Norman Finkelstein and others have written, its memory has been shamelessly exploited by apologists for Israel. Given that fact, in addition to the fact that the regime which carried out the Holocaust has been crushed, scattered, and is (with the exception of some segments of the far-right) almost universally reviled, it does not make sense to treat the Holocaust on the same plane as the oppression of Palestine. In fact, if the Holocaust were still taking place, and the Nazis were still in power, the Holocaust would be undeniably the worse oppression. But the fact is, the Holocaust, unlike the Palestinian Nakba, is over, most of its perpetrators met the cold hand of justice, and those who remain are fugitives. I also worry that constantly trying to find & condemn "anti-Semitism" can essentially function as a form of soft Zionism. If we are in solidarity with Palestine, why are we going out of our way to find attacks on the religion and culture of the settler population that is displacing them? Why is it, if we know that many people who share our views but sometimes make exaggerated comments or hold arguably exaggerated views about a very racist regime or the communities that support it or identify with it, do we believe they are espousing "anti-Semitism"? And further, if we recognize that the rightists often use left-wing rhetoric, what makes the same rhetoric "right-wing" when it is used by leftists? - Amith On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 10:01 AM, Jeff via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > ******************** POSTING RULES & NOTES ******************** > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > ***************************************************************** > > At 03:10 04-03-15 -0500, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: > > > >I've seen a number of rightists, including some far-rightists who have > >vocally condemned, in stinging terms, the slaughter of people in Gaza..... > > >Do their views about other topics negate their > >support for Palestine?....... > > >And on the flipside, what should I make of "leftists" like the > >Anti-Deutsch, or the AWL, or the US SWP.... > > Thanks Amith for your post, which brings up a number of crucial issues that > receive insufficient attention, in my opinion. I'm, sure a major cause of > that inattention is explained by the discomfort it causes to those on the > left who are either explicitly or de facto in an "anti-imperialist" > alliance with (part of) the far right, as we have discussed extensively in > other contexts. Left unspoken in Amith's post, but obviously of great > relevance, is the issue of antisemitism, which I'm sure we can all agree is > a right wing ideology like all forms of racism or religious bigotry. There > are at least 3 rather distinct issues raised within this discussion: > > 1) The paradox of far right "support" for the Palestinians and their > national liberation struggle. > > 2) The actual existence or appearance of antisemitism among Palestinians or > other oppressed peoples of the region who are directly threatened by > Israel. (Which is a different issue from antisemitism among > "pro-Palestinian" campaigners in Europe, for instance, which more falls > into category (1)). > > 3) The unfortunate reaction of some leftist groups -- ones that are really > left, according to their program on any number of issues -- to the question > of antisemitism, in which they are led to an inexcusable softness towards > or wholesale support for Zionism. > > I could expound extensively on any of these questions but will just say a > few things in relation to (1), but would appreciate discussion on the list > around these other issues. I don't have much time at the moment, so I'll be > brief. > > > I remember how shocked and confused I was the first time I read a > "pro-Palestinian" position expounded by a clearly fascist group! I don't > remember which one it was, but what I'm saying applies to all such cases. > In Europe and North America these fascist groups are invariably white > racist and their views of Arabs are no better than any other people of > color. It is inexplicable that they would see the suffering of Palestinians > and be morally outraged while having no such reaction to the Nazi > holocaust. You cannot find in their writings solidarity with > anti-imperialist struggles in general or defense of minorities in European > countries. Or support for any other struggles by Arabs where Israel isn't > involved. The only possible explanation for their "solidarity" with > Palestine, having internalized the mainstream narrative of a "Jewish-Arab > conflict" in the middle-east, is anti-semitism. Period. I have no doubt > about that, and that is why I see their "support" for Palestine as being > disingenuous and having nothing to with the actual solidarity movement let > alone the concerns of the left. I can't be sufficiently emphatic on this > point without access to the volume control on your computer. > > Now maybe I didn't need to point that out to most people reading this, but > it leads to the practical questions of how we leftists, and Palestinian > solidarity organizations which aren't explicitly left, deal with the > appearance of such "supporters" in our midst. As a leftist I denounce them > as fascist or far-right whenever I see them, since that's what they are. > Palestine solidarity groups can and should denounce them for their > antisemitism, as for any display of racism, when it can be discerned. For > instance, in the Netherlands our demonstrations prohibit the presence of > signs or slogans that are even remotely anti-semitic. > > Sometimes people join us with signs or writings which aren't consciously > antisemitic, such as accusing Israel of "controlling" Western governments > (the concept of the "international Jewish conspiracy"), and they just need > to become aware of an issue that they weren't sensitive to. I would never > express hostility to such a person or group, when it is indeed innocent. > However there are cases where an identical public face belongs to a > far-right ACTUALLY antisemitic group, and they know exactly what they are > doing! Likewise, someone can, for instance, innocently denounce atrocities > or machinations by "Jews", meaning Israel. Experienced activists (not just > leftists) are careful to refer to "Zionism" or Israel as the enemy, so when > such sloppy wording is encountered we have to help improve it, or identify > an actual antisemite when that is the case. > > Unfortunately the most sophisticated fascists understand everything I just > wrote and know enough to "oppose Zionism," challenge the Israeli state, > express faux-solidarity with the Palestinian struggle, and even to lament > the misleadership of Zionists over Jews (who of course "are a good people, > but are being used"). In other words, they can even adopt our exact > wording, as Amith points out. Well of course if someone shows up to a demo > with such wording, we'd never know if they were really right-wing unless > their swastika tattoo shows through their clothes. In my experience, it's > difficult for an antisemite to hide their underlying views during an > extended conversation, and if they don't know I'm a leftist, might not even > try to. So I guess what I'm saying is that actual rightists should be > identified and denounced whenever they are discovered, but also be careful > not to alienate actual supporters of Palestine (even if their politics are > not left at all) who are not motivated by antisemitism or any such hidden > agenda. > > I've pointed out that the antisemitism of fascists can lead them to take > advantage of the world's people's overwhelming sympathy for the plight of > the Palestinians. For them, it's a way to help destroy Israel which they > identify (as do the Zionists!) as the true representative of all Jews. On > the other hand, there are many other fascist or far-right forces which have > quite the opposite view of Israel! Which I find much more honest and > sincere. You see both types among the European far-right. In Holland, for > instance, the far-right Party for Freedom (PVV) of Geert Wilders finds > common ground with Israel in its struggle against "radical Islam." He is a > close friend of the Israeli right, and is believed to work for the Mossad. > > You just have to feel sorry for these fascists, who have to decide whether > to prioritize their hate of Moslems or their hate of Jews! Interestingly, > I never see a public struggle between these two types of fascists. I guess > they understand, between themselves, that it is a tactical question whether > you want to support Palestine in order to bring down the Jews, or support > Israel in order to oppress Islamic people and nations. At least in the > latter case, they have honest solidarity with a white European ruling class > (and understand the reality that "Jews" don't have any huge amount of power > in the world that they would consider a threat). But the "pro-Palestinian" > rightists that Amith refers to are a more complex problem, and I welcome > further discussion on how to effectively "out" them, and protect the > Palestinian solidarity movement from the stain of antisemitism that the > Zionists require us to be seen as. > > - Jeff > > > _________________________________________________________ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/amithrgupta%40gmail.com > _________________________________________________________ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
