Wow - what a team you and Charlie make.... Repetitive hitting of a button that "Marv said 'socialism is dead".
Frankly, I myself have Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) - and for the life of me I could not figure out - so I asked Mark B - "Where did all this vituperation come from?" Apparently it comes from this - and I copy Message 09/23/23 #26104 - for all the others like me who have A.D.D. I add the critical underlining to highlight where Marv uttered the words that "condemned" him to be a renegade in your eyes: Says Marv: " On Sat, Sep 23, 2023 at 02:31 PM, <sartesian@...> wrote: Your stance is that socialism is dead as a workers' movement and that to "reanimate" socialism we have to renounce a class conscious program in favor of one that supports class collaboration and maintains the ruling institutions and relations of the bourgeoisie. And that is what is truly "unforgiveable." Marv: Yes, I do maintain that socialism is dead as a workers' movement in this period. But in all my years on this list I've never once said nor hinted that I am in favour of a program "which supports class collaboration and maintains the ruling institutions and relations of the bourgeoisie." I have not believed in a peaceful road to socialism or even the possibility of fundamental change under capitalism since I was introduced to Marxist literature as an undergraduate. You can be certain that if I were a social democrat who believed that to be the case, I would proudly declare myself as such and would have in the past thrown all my energies into building the NDP and defending its leadershiip and program. If I subscribed to Tsipras' policies, as you allege, I would have defended them against his critics then and now. I've rarely been accused of being someone who hides his political beliefs and is afraid to defend them. As it happens, I remain an admirer of Lenin, both as a theoretician and as a practical politician. He understood that a revolutionary program required revolutionary conditions and scorned those who thought the Bolshevik program could be mechanically imported where such conditions did not exist He was flexible enough to alter his position when conditions changed, and he understood that the overthrow of capitalism by the masses would require a vanguard party of disciplined revolutionaries. I don't share the analysis of Probsting, Rachlis, Kumar and others who believe that socialist revolution is presently or imminently on the agenda, but I respect their trying to build Leninist cadre organizations in preparation for that eventuality. I once shared their view and acted similarly. So did a number of others who still may subscribe to that view but are no longer active in such organizations for mostly age-related reasons. I can also respect that. The one constituency on the Marxist left for which I have always had little tolerance are parlour Bolsheviks who talk tough but shy away from these vanguard groups and have no more to show for it than the rest of us." You know Sartesian & Charlie - perhaps you have been asleep the last period since the fall of the USSR...? Sartesian you would likely time this experience at around 1925; Charlie you may time this at around 1953.. (Truly strange bed-fellows you are). Tell me then - where you saw socialism being established after that? Perhaps it was in the gushings of Castro? Perhaps it was in the ever-so vibrant and brave Che? Perhaps indeed it might have been in the disasters of Mao's so-called 'Great Leap" or even better in his "Great" "Proletarian" Counter-revolution? Oh - did I forget, did you see it perhaps in.... (wait for it) Harold Wilson..? Or perhaps even in Kampuchea.... Dear me. We won't even mention Grenada, Nicaragua, Venezuela.. oh, the list goes on - does it not? So it is pretty easy to dump on someone who - perhaps better than even you - has fought the good fight, and has a moment of a long exhalation sigh. Sectarianism takes many forms. Good for you - I do hope that you feel proud of yourselves. H -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#32757): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/32757 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/108801645/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/13617172/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
