“Those critiques of the universities look good. I got through the first two.” – J
Glad you liked them. I suggest you do an indepth study of Noam’s understanding about whatever topic you are interested in. He has over 100 books out. I’m sure some are about things you think about and deem to be important. As I’ve said, I thought I was a ‘freethinker’ and did a good analysis of situations, politics, economics etc. until I started to read Noam a couple of years ago. It was like I had a mental floss! Listening to his clear analysis based upon a vast and apparently photographic memory of historical events and elements, I felt my thinking melt. My positions melted. His fresh view seemed to much more match reality than many of my previous views had. While much of what he writes about I have to take on faith due to the enormous quantity of references he gives, so far, I haven’t found anything he references to not be the case. Having said that, I am in the middle of questioning and reviewing the video/transcript I posted here because, my memory of what Joe Biden was saying about the lead up to the invasion of Iraq was anything but support as Noam implied. I was watching a lot of C-SPAN, the BBC and other less biased venues during that era and remember specifically some of Joe’s often repeated words. He was quite conversant and knowledgeable about the history of the region and very accurately predicted exactly the result of the invasion and occupation. What I’m in the process of checking is Joe’s voting record in congress. That may be what Noam meant by ‘supported the war’. If so, it would make sense. I just don’t know about that yet. On to some of your apparently rhetorical questions… but I will respond if possible. “Now as far as critiquing his speech that you posted originally, do not you think that it is a stretch to imply that Obama may be setting himself us for a dictatorship any more than other government leaders (past or present)?” – J I don’t think this was his position. Do you remember him including the last qualifier in your above question? I don’t. “ I agree with the advertising criticism but how else will a candidate win, realistically?” – J Do you mean without any sort of change? Obviously, things will remain the same if they remain the same. In most situations Noam appears to be looking at things from a much more objective view. One that is not firmly entrenched in the memes of the day and culture. One based on a true bit of ‘freethinking’ as I see it. So, IF you see situations and institutions as being static and unchangeable, you will not agree with much of what Noam says. “Besides, Democrats and Republican are pretty much the same as far as big government...each attempts to gain more power from the people so what's new? The people just have to do some work to prevent that from happening.” – J Again, it appears that you assume that the current system is static. Republican/Democratic. The truth is that ‘the people’, in this case lobbyists and party leaders, have been influencing and changing laws and procedures along with public perception. And, this has been done in a very conscious and well thought out way. There are no accidents in politics. The issue here seems to me, and perhaps Noam, that ‘the people’ means just that, all of us and not the few. I would ask you what you have been doing in this area and/or what ideas you have about it but hope that you already think about this for yourself. “Here is a question: Many of my liberal friends flock around Noam and hang on every world that he says without ever criticizing or disagreeing with his views. Can you name five or more points on which you disagree with Noam? Or, are you just like one of those non- skeptical Noam followers who I frequently met in California?” – J You seem to have taken the Kool-Aid, sadly. The simplistic view of liberal/conservative does nothing at all to further true understanding nor thinking. It is a carefully tooled and framed way to present the issues to the ‘masses’. Again, there are no accidents here. By producing a dialectic, a simple ‘war’ between two apparently differing points of view is the result. By framing the issues using the media (Noam has written some outlandishly wonderful papers on the media.) those in politics can shift our interests to things with little true importance. Many people in fact vote against their own self interests due to such carefully crafted ‘issues’ of no importance. This was clearly addressed, albeit shortly, in the video I posted here. I suggest you read more of his views on it. Much can be learned. Also, I’m sure that the way you framed your question (above) includes your own ‘answer’ and is a tactic used in debate and in no way produces a ‘fair’ and clear discussion where actual learning can take place. In other words, your bias is overtly included in the way you ‘ask a question’. An analogy is the old saw of “Do you still beat your wife?”. No, I don’t ‘hang on every world [sic.]…’. I do listen and open my thinking to new facts and possibilities. Seldom am I disappointed about the outcome. Do I criticize or disagree with his views? …ever? See above RE: Joe Biden. I’m looking into that. Also, I have read some online polemics and counterpoint to him. So far, I find the criticism of Noam to be unfounded and more biased than what is being criticized could ever be. I would be happy to take any one point of his and discuss it with you after you have studied it too. In general, Noam presents history and a rather unique view of how things work and people think. His experience and information base is so vast that I will never be able to examine all of what he says. As I said at the start though, so far, I haven’t found a mistake of fact. When it comes to attitudes, we could discuss what criteria you wish to use for a critique. No, I can not name 5 areas I disagree with him. As I said, most of what he says is either historical fact or a specific point of view. And, of course your last question only shows your personal bias and is apparently rhetorical in nature. This does nothing to further either of our understandings. I am glad you have at least begun to examine Noam yourself rather than take on the propaganda of others. And, I hope you continue to clearly critique his papers in the future in the spirit of a true ‘freethinker’. On Nov 25, 3:18 am, "Jason (Memphis)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Those critiques of the universities look good. I got through the > first two. > > Now as far as critiquing his speech that you posted originally, do not > you think that it is a stretch to imply that Obama may be setting > himself us for a dictatorship any more than other government leaders > (past or present)? I agree with the advertising criticism but how > else will a candidate win, realistically? Besides, Democrats and > Republican are pretty much the same as far as big government...each > attempts to gain more power from the people so what's new? The > people just have to do some work to prevent that from happening. > > Here is a question: Many of my liberal friends flock around Noam and > hang on every world that he says without ever criticizing or > disagreeing with his views. Can you name five or more points on which > you disagree with Noam? Or, are you just like one of those non- > skeptical Noam followers who I frequently met in California? > > Jason > > On Nov 24, 7:05 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Noam peppers many of his critiques with pointed comments about > > universities and education in general. Here are a couple that came up > > first from ‘god google’. > > > Recent speech.http://www.bu.edu/phpbin/buniverse/videos/view/?id=224 > > > General views including > > Universities.http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/197305--.htm > > > More general overviews.http://www.chomsky.info/articles/19740207.htm > > > Resources:http://www.chomsky.info/http://www.synaptic.bc.ca/ejournal/chomsky.ht... > > > A few thousand videos of > > him:http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Noam+chomsky&search_type=... > > > On Nov 24, 4:26 pm, "Jason (Memphis)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > The only book that I read was part of "Hegemony or Survival: America's > > > Quest for Global Dominance" and a few articles by him in school. > > > > I am not that familiar with his work. Where was he ever cynical of > > > Ivy League institutions--not the ideas of these Ivy League > > > institutions but the institutions themselves like he is cynical of > > > government and corporate institutions? > > > > On Nov 24, 5:58 pm, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > “I thought his point were good; however, Noam's an extreme liberal. > > > > Noam is hyper cynical of all wealthy institutions unless it's an Ivy > > > > League institution.” – Jason > > > > > I accept that you think his point(s) were good. > > > > > "Reality has a liberal bias." - Al Franken. > > > > > And, I doubt if many who study his works find him to be ‘liberal’. He > > > > even examines how liberal/conservative have reversed definitions a few > > > > times over the last few centuries in different countries and cultures > > > > in his writing. > > > > > I don’t know for sure what you mean by ‘wealthy institutions’, so I > > > > can only guess. Perhaps you mean governments? Churches? Corporations? > > > > The Mafia?….difficult to tell. > > > > > As to his views about Universities, he has always been critical of > > > > them…always. > > > > > As to cynicism, since this includes the meaning of distrust, I see no > > > > reason to not hold that view about most institutions. In fact, that is > > > > part of his definition of anarchy. I doubt if many ‘freethinkers’ here > > > > would disagree with his definition. > > > > See:http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/rbr/noamrbr2.html > > > > > So, overall, I’m glad you liked and agreed with him. I find him to be > > > > one of the few sane voices in a vast wasteland. This even though the > > > > way he is absolutely banned from any of the corporate media, TV, > > > > print, radio etc., speaks volumes about how ‘dangerous’ his clarity is > > > > perceived as being by these institutions what with their vast and > > > > vested interests. > > > > > Their propaganda against him is legion. Almost everyone who has NOT > > > > read his works nor listened to him for any length of time considers > > > > him at the very least ‘controversial’ and on the whole, dangerous. > > > > Apparently it pays to advertise, which he addressed in the interview > > > > you just watched. > > > > > On Nov 24, 3:38 pm, "Jason (Memphis)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > I thought his point were good; however, Noam's an extreme liberal. > > > > > Noam is hyper cynical of all wealthy institutions unless it's an Ivy > > > > > League institution. > > > > > > On Nov 24, 9:21 am, ornamentalmind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > I was a little surprised by some of Noam’s views on the election > > > > > > process and results. Rather than start out with my views, you may > > > > > > find > > > > > > his first presentation since the election of note. > > > > > > >http://www.democracynow.org/2008/11/24/noam_chomsky_what_next_the_ele...- > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
